Celtics offensive foul call

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Let's discuss some of these plays:

Cheap And 1 early in the clip and then weak foul with .1 left:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No5hnQ0JjUA


I don't see anything wrong with this player positioning either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mILwQctYLw

I don't mind discussing these plays, but please start a new thread for them. Thanks.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by mick

Personally, I really liked the call, as well as being really surprised that call was made.

Those were exactly my thoughts, as well, Mick. That's why I mentioned that it seemed that the call goes against the defender almost all the time.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I've officiated basketball for close to 50 years and I don't have a clue what criteria is used in the NBA to make ANY foul call. Note that isn't a smart-azz comment either; it's a fact.

At least on this call I agree.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Those were exactly my thoughts, as well, Mick. That's why I mentioned that it seemed that the call goes against the defender almost all the time.

Are you kidding?

Do you *REALLY* like this call??

I don't. I thought it sucked.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Do you *REALLY* like this call??

I don't. I thought it sucked.

Well, IF there's a call, I don't think it can be against the defender in that play. Pierce clearly jumps to the side, outside his vertical plane, to initiate contact on the defender, who was already airborne, that probably wouldn't have occurred if he'd jumped straight up.'

You could argue for a no-call, and I wouldn't argue too hard against you.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You could argue for a no-call, and I wouldn't argue too hard against you.

Then you don't really like this call after all, do you?

Coud you defend ths call in your game? Sitting in the locker room with your assignor?

[Back In The Saddle]

I'm with Dan. Sure, he stepped into the defender's path. But not very much. I like a no call on this a LOT better than the offensive foul.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Both the Pierce call and the Fisher call are not the same things or the same kind of contact.

Peace

True, not the same thing, but the plays are similar in that both involve a defender flying at a would-be 3 point shooter. The difference is that Fisher took a poor angle and was, in my opinion, clearly responsible for the contact. Some say the contact was not sufficient to warrant a foul call.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Barry was not knocked over and did not lose the ball.

Others, including myself, disagree saying that the contact kept him from having any kind of good look at the final shot. From here we spin off in various directions: He should have jumped into the contact........The star (which Barry is not) would have gotten the call....Joey Crawford has issues.......etc.

On the second play it seems that Hamilton took a good angle. He flies at Pierce hoping to distract him, and if Pierce goes straight up, there probably is no contact at all. But Pierce slides over and creates the contact. Hamilton hits the floor, yes, but the ball is in the hoop by now. Was the defender put at a disadvantage? Did the contact help Pierce get the shot off? I don't see how.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't have a clue what criteria is used in the NBA to make ANY foul call.

Me neither.


NBA officiating is selective in what is called and not called, and NCAA D1 is heading more and more in that same direction. My question is why? These are the greatest players in the world. Is it asking too much to make a traveling call that you would expect to see made in a middle school game?
If Fisher was in jr. high and made the play that he made, and his team had lost, the jr. high coach would have used that play as an example for years to come. "SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU COMMIT YOURSELF AND LEAVE YOUR FEET. YOU GOTTA BE SMARTER THAN THAT, GUYS."

[zebraman]

I don't see anything that would justify the P/C call. I don't see Pierce use any elbow as was mentioned earlier. I see an out-of-control defender running at a shooter. Pierce stepped in front of him similar to a defender trying to draw a charge. Maybe a no-call or possibly a foul on the defense but I sure don't see a P/C.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

True, not the same thing, but the plays are similar in that both involve a defender flying at a would-be 3 point shooter. The difference is that Fisher took a poor angle and was, in my opinion, clearly responsible for the contact. Some say the contact was not sufficient to warrant a foul call.

My position was the contact did not cause and advantage based on what Barry was trying to do. Enough contact is not really my determining factor for fouls.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Others, including myself, disagree saying that the contact kept him from having any kind of good look at the final shot. From here we spin off in various directions: He should have jumped into the contact........The star (which Barry is not) would have gotten the call....Joey Crawford has issues.......etc.

Do a YouTube search and the biggest star of all was not getting a lot of "calls" by jumping into people during jump shots. And that star is Kobe Bryant who was on opposite team. Again that "star" issue must not be as prevalent as you claim.

Originally Posted by just another ref

On the second play it seems that Hamilton took a good angle. He flies at Pierce hoping to distract him, and if Pierce goes straight up, there probably is no contact at all. But Pierce slides over and creates the contact. Hamilton hits the floor, yes, but the ball is in the hoop by now. Was the defender put at a disadvantage? Did the contact help Pierce get the shot off? I don't see how.

The contact did not help Pierce get the shot off, but you can make a case that Hamilton would not have hit the floor if Pierce did not throw and elbow. If nothing else it was a dirty or rough act. I have no problem with the call. Could you make a case that no call could have been made on this play? Sure you could, but if Hamilton the next opportunity throws an elbow, and then we will look back at this play as the catalyst of that action. And the official will get blamed as usual for not "cleaning up" the game.

Originally Posted by just another ref

NBA officiating is selective in what is called and not called, and NCAA D1 is heading more and more in that same direction. My question is why? These are the greatest players in the world. Is it asking too much to make a traveling call that you would expect to see made in a middle school game?
If Fisher was in jr. high and made the play that he made, and his team had lost, the jr. high coach would have used that play as an example for years to come. "SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU COMMIT YOURSELF AND LEAVE YOUR FEET. YOU GOTTA BE SMARTER THAN THAT, GUYS."

The fact that you are comparing JH to the NBA says a lot right there. If this was JH and a player did the same thing as Barry, I would not have called a foul. And considering that JH players travel when the look at the ball and competent officials pass on those little technical plays all the time. And if we did call a travel as much as you suggest in a JH game, then every possession would have a turnover.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My position was the contact did not cause and advantage based on what Barry was trying to do. Enough contact is not really my determining factor for fouls.

What was Barry trying to do?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do a YouTube search and the biggest star of all was not getting a lot of "calls" by jumping into people during jump shots. And that star is Kobe Bryant who was on opposite team. Again that "star" issue must not be as prevalent as you claim.

This was not my personal claim, but one that is frequently heard.
I think this concept is not totally without merit.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I don't see anything that would justify the P/C call. I don't see Pierce use any elbow as was mentioned earlier. I see an out-of-control defender running at a shooter. Pierce stepped in front of him similar to a defender trying to draw a charge. Maybe a no-call or possibly a foul on the defense but I sure don't see a P/C.

Watch the video again - the replay in particular that shows the angle from behind.

Seriously - you don't see Pierce lunge out sideways?

Really?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This was not my personal claim, but one that is frequently heard.
I think this concept is not totally without merit.

Just because people believe something does not make it true. Just like you said there were not traveling calls made, I was watching Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals and I saw two travel calls off the bat. One call was where a Celtic player was just standing still and moved his pivot foot. I wonder if the people who say that do more than watch a single YouTube video or actually watch games from beginning to the end. Now I admit I am not as big of an NBA fan as I used to be, but I do watch several portions of games when I get a chance and I see lots of travels and lot of stars not getting any special calls.

It makes me think that many here are listening more to what uneducated media members think rather than watching the game themselves. Let us not make it sound like all other levels call every travel and every foul because there is a lot of contact.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What was Barry trying to do?

Well he certainly was not trying to shoot at the time of contact.

Peace