Too many players on the court

[Nevadaref]

WARNING reading this post could pose a serious risk to your health. Severe system shock is possible.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot believe we are holding officials that are working an AAU Middle school game at a high standard. Scared to all a T? Four mistakes? I am sure the officials working the game were not the best officials around the area considering this is an off season middle school AAU game. Just an observation.

I agree with that.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

WARNING reading this post could pose a serious risk to your health. Severe system shock is possible.



I agree with that.

Wow!! you really must be sick or something.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Wow!! you really must be sick or something.

We learned that a long time ago.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot believe we are holding officials that are working an AAU Middle school game at a high standard. Scared to all a T? Four mistakes? I am sure the officials working the game were not the best officials around the area considering this is an off season middle school AAU game. Just an observation.

So what? It doesn't change that mistakes were made.

Granted, these officials might have less experience, but if they're worth anything, they will have learned from the situation.

And Rut, where did it previously say that the officials were scared to call a T? Snaq said spineless, but that's it. You're adding information that has no history or place in the thread. In fact, they did issue a T: against the coach who did know the rule!

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I cannot believe we are holding officials that are working an AAU Middle school game at a high standard...

I don't think we're commenting on a standard...just analyzing a situation presented by a coach. It wouldn't be very useful to say "Ah, just an AAU game...they're probably not good officials....who cares?"

oh wait...I see that's part of you signature.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So what? It doesn't change that mistakes were made.

Granted, these officials might have less experience, but if they're worth anything, they will have learned from the situation.

And Rut, where did it previously say that the officials were scared to call a T? Snaq said spineless, but that's it. You're adding information that has no history or place in the thread. In fact, they did issue a T: against the coach who did know the rule!

Since I said it, I'll defend it. I've seen the comments here about officials who will do everything they can, including turning a blind eye, to avoid this T because they're absolutely convinced it's their fault. Those are the ones I call spineless; at the very least, they're ignorant of the rules. Also, some officials are more willing to try to let this slide at the AAU level; especially if the player was already on his way off the court and there had been no real advantage gained. That's not spineless, it's a philosophical opinion on how to officiate lower level games.

Finally, we're not holding them to any particular standard. I worked a lot of lower level games before I started to get a good grasp of the rules and proper procedures; someone pointing out my mistakes wouldn't have been out of place, and I wouldn't have considered them to be holding me to some inappropriate standard.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Also, some officials are more willing to try to let this slide at the AAU level; especially if the player was already on his way off the court and there had been no real advantage gained. That's not spineless, it's a philosophical opinion on how to officiate lower level games.

Snaqs - this is interesting verbiage to me and leads me back to an earlier thread - slamming the ball on the court and having it bounce half-way to the ceiling and not calling the T because of the "level of the game".....

I am still trying to learn, understand, and properly use the "what's ok at what level and what age" philosphy and sometimes find it difficult, especially after reading the differing opinions on the board. Makes good reading and food for thought for me though......and I certainly appreciate everyone's differing opinions as they add to my kit bag......

[Adam]

I think part of what makes it difficult, on the surface, is there doesn't seem to be consistency. On the one hand, there are some saying they wouldn't call the T for slamming the ball there because of the high level of the game. (Note, there are some who wouldn't call that, period, when looking at the play in question and all the game factors not related to the level.) On the other hand, some would give more leeway to the 6 player T in lower level games that they wouldn't give at higher level games.

Personally, I think it's because they're different kind of Ts. One, sportsmanship, is highly subjective anyway. What passes for unsportsmanlike behavior at the high school level is not the same as the college. A perfect example is swearing. In high school, we're told to call the T regardless of to whom the swearing is directed. When a kid throws a bad pass and shouts "Sh!t!" our hands are tied. I don't think that's the case in college.

Administrative Ts (in which I'd include the 6 player rule) are different, and we often given more leeway at lower levels. I've never even heard of a T being called at a JV game for not having the lineups in 10 minutes prior to game time, for example.

[MikeK27]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think part of what makes it difficult, on the surface, is there doesn't seem to be consistency. On the one hand, there are some saying they wouldn't call the T for slamming the ball there because of the high level of the game. (Note, there are some who wouldn't call that, period, when looking at the play in question and all the game factors not related to the level.) On the other hand, some would give more leeway to the 6 player T in lower level games that they wouldn't give at higher level games.

Personally, I think it's because they're different kind of Ts. One, sportsmanship, is highly subjective anyway. What passes for unsportsmanlike behavior at the high school level is not the same as the college. A perfect example is swearing. In high school, we're told to call the T regardless of to whom the swearing is directed. When a kid throws a bad pass and shouts "Sh!t!" our hands are tied. I don't think that's the case in college.

Administrative Ts (in which I'd include the 6 player rule) are different, and we often given more leeway at lower levels. I've never even heard of a T being called at a JV game for not having the lineups in 10 minutes prior to game time, for example.

That is a really good breakdown. Since I am new I don't have the knowledge or experience to get involved in the different interpretations of things like this. But, as I read through the posts on the different interpretations of the situations I find it really interesting. It's nice for a new guy to see the different views on the situations. I guess I will form my own opinions with experience, but reading these posts really help me to look at the situations from all views.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So what? It doesn't change that mistakes were made.

Granted, these officials might have less experience, but if they're worth anything, they will have learned from the situation.

And Rut, where did it previously say that the officials were scared to call a T? Snaq said spineless, but that's it. You're adding information that has no history or place in the thread. In fact, they did issue a T: against the coach who did know the rule!

Here you go.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Unfortunately, there are some spineless refs out there that won't call it becaus they think it's their fault. They're wrong. It's not their fault; or the rules committee wouldn't have this be a technical foul.

If you are spineless, that means you are afraid to stand up and do the right thing. You do not call people with courage spineless.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I don't think we're commenting on a standard...just analyzing a situation presented by a coach. It wouldn't be very useful to say "Ah, just an AAU game...they're probably not good officials....who cares?"

oh wait...I see that's part of you signature.

Yes you are. AAU Basketball at any level is a mixed bag of standards and application of basic situations, let alone rules. Often times you do not even have a regular substitution process where players actually go to the table like during the regular season. I have worked games where the table was not in the right place and how timeouts are handled can be very disorganized as it relates to actual rules. And you add to that the level of experience of the officials, the quality of the table personnel or even the court configuration and you have all levels of confusion for everyone involved.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Here you go.

If you are spineless, that means you are afraid to stand up and do the right thing. You do not call people with courage spineless.

I suppose, in context, it might not be as clear, but I was not calling these particular officials spineless. There may be other reasons they didn't call it, and I have stated those reasons here in this particular thread.

My statement above was in direct response to the following question from the OP:

But, are refs reluctant to call this 'T', because perhaps it's their fault for not counting and signaling?

It was a generic answer to a generic question.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by grunewar

Snaqs - this is interesting verbiage to me and leads me back to an earlier thread - slamming the ball on the court and having it bounce half-way to the ceiling and not calling the T because of the "level of the game".....
I am still trying to learn, understand, and properly use the "what's ok at what level and what age" philosphy and sometimes find it difficult, especially after reading the differing opinions on the board. Makes good reading and food for thought for me though......and I certainly appreciate everyone's differing opinions as they add to my kit bag......

If you are referring to the situation that took place in the National Championship game this ball never was half-way to the ceiling. The player that slammed the ball was not mad at an official's call or doing anything in frustration other than what he had not done. And if you heard a lot of veterans on this site talk, they suggested this would not have been a T at any level. Not JH, wreak, HS varsity, Division 3, Division 2 or Pro-Am.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I suppose, in context, it might not be as clear, but I was not calling these particular officials spineless. There may be other reasons they didn't call it, and I have stated those reasons here in this particular thread.

My statement above was in direct response to the following question from the OP:
It was a generic answer to a generic question.

My point is there are probably multiple facets to this situation. And I am sure if you asked the officials what they saw; they might have another story behind what took place. Just because this was not called does not mean the officials noticed and turned the other cheek. It could be they simply did not see the 6 player as the coach thinks (and why we are just taking a coach's word alone is curious to me in the first place). I would have never had a problem if we just gave the rule and said what should have taken place. But to automatically assume the officials just decided not to make a call to me was a little over the top considering the level and likely the circumstances.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

My point is there are probably multiple facets to this situation. And I am sure if you asked the officials what they saw; they might have another story behind what took place. Just because this was not called does not mean the officials noticed and turned the other cheek. It could be they simply did not see the 6 player as the coach thinks (and why we are just taking a coach's word alone is curious to me in the first place). I would have never had a problem if we just gave the rule and said what should have taken place. But to automatically assume the officials just decided not to make a call to me was a little over the top considering the level and likely the circumstances.

Peace

Which really isn't all that different than what I have written, in aggregate, during this thread.