Table error correctable, 2 awarded as 3?

[robertclasalle]

This play occurred in a recent D-2 game (California, PA vs. Alaska-Anchorage), reported to me by a good friend and fellow official from western Pennsylvania. Arts was involved in a play during the first half that led to the scoring error. He made a 19-foot jumper from the right wing that was clearly signaled as a two-point basket by the officials. However, the official scorer, located on the opposite side of the court, credited Arts with a three-pointer, trimming Cal's lead to 18-16 with 6:22 remaining. The mistake wasn't brought to the attention of the official scorer until halftime and was deemed uncorrectable.

Is this different from signaling 3 for a known 2, or vice versa? Does this error have the typical timeframe associated with it? Rule 2-10-1-e and 2-10-2 and 2-10-3 limit the time to correct.

Is there a different rule here for NCAA men than NFHS?

[w_sohl]

errors made by the officials on the playing surface. The table errors are always correctable when there is definite knowledge that there is an error and how to correct it.

I had an issue in a girls JV game that I was working where the clock apparently didn't run for a possesion. I wasn't sure of the time that should come off the clock and the table gave me vague answers as to what they THOUGHT should come off the clock. There was 11.1 seconds left in the game, home team had ball and was down by 1. I wouldn't remove any time from the clock because I had no definative knowledge as the the time that should come off. Needless to say visiting coach wasn't happy and wanted to argue that the table had knowledge, but all they kept saying was "I think...". Home team hits buzzer beater to win. Coach wants my name, I print it in book because I know I am right and then work the V game next and get nothing but evil eyes from V coaches entire time.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by robertclasalle

Is this different from signaling 3 for a known 2, or vice versa? Does this error have the typical time frame associated with it? Rule 2-10-1-e and 2-10-2 and 2-10-3 limit the time to correct.

In the case of the original post, which was a bookkeeping "mistake". This could be corrected at any time until all the officials left the visual confines of the court

In the followup question, if the official signals a three, for what was really a two, or doesn't signal a three, for what was really a three, NFHS Rule 2-10 does come into play, with the time limitations to correct the error:

NFHS 2-10-1: Officials may correct an error if a rule is inadvertently set aside and results in: a. Failure to award a merited free throw. b. Awarding an unmerited free throw. c. Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw. d. Attempting a free throw at the wrong basket. e. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.

NFHS 2-10-2: In order to correct any of the officials’ errors listed in Article 1, such error must be recognized by an official no later than during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started.

NFHS 2-10-3: If in Article 1e the error is made while the clock is running and the ball dead, it must be recognized by an official before the second live ball.

NFHS 2-10-5: Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified. Errors because of free-throw attempts by the wrong player or at the wrong basket shall be corrected by applying 8-1 and 2.

NFHS 2-10-6: If an error is corrected, play shall be resumed from the point of interruption to rectify the error, unless it involves awarding a merited free throw(s) and there has been no change of team possession since the error was made, in which case play shall resume as after any free-throw attempt(s).

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by robertclasalle

This play occurred in a recent D-2 game (California, PA vs. Alaska-Anchorage), reported to me by a good friend and fellow official from western Pennsylvania. Arts was involved in a play during the first half that led to the scoring error. He made a 19-foot jumper from the right wing that was clearly signaled as a two-point basket by the officials. However, the official scorer, located on the opposite side of the court, credited Arts with a three-pointer, trimming Cal's lead to 18-16 with 6:22 remaining. The mistake wasn't brought to the attention of the official scorer until halftime and was deemed uncorrectable.

Is this different from signaling 3 for a known 2, or vice versa? Does this error have the typical timeframe associated with it? Rule 2-10-1-e and 2-10-2 and 2-10-3 limit the time to correct.

Is there a different rule here for NCAA men than NFHS?

Bookkeeping errors, as posted previously, can be corrected at any point until the officials leave the court at the end of the game.

I had this happen to me in a small college championship game. I was the scorer and A1 is shooting the second of two free throws. A1 makes but the officials appear to wave it off with a lane violation.

At some point later in the game, the officials come to me and explain that team A should have an additional point because Team B committed the lane violation, and not Team A (inadvertant whistle, apparently? ). It took me a couple of times talking this over with the official to realize what he was saying, but this is a good example of handling a bookkeeping error.

Of course, it would have been nice if they had come to the table immediately to make sure we had the call and score correct then, but at least we - the crew -- did get it right eventually.

[jdw3018]

I don't want to highjack this thread, but what about a scenario where the officials really goof - the shot comes from the border area between coverages of the C and T, and T signals 3 while C clearly signals 2 points to the scorer (I know, this isn't an official mechanic).

Regardless of which on the scorer sees and records, is this a correctable error situation or a bookkeeping error?

I'd think correctable error, as one of the officials made the mistake, but curious if anyone else has a different take?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

What about a scenario where the officials really goof. The shot comes from the border area between coverages of the C and T, and T signals 3 while C clearly signals 2 points to the scorer. Regardless of which on the scorer sees and records, is this a correctable error situation or a bookkeeping error?

Great question. The answer to this is easy if both officials make eye contact with each other, realize that their call is not the same as their partner's, blow the whistle to stop the clock during the dead ball period after the ball goes through the basket, confer to see who got the best look, come to a mutually agreed upon conclusion, and report this mutually agreed upon conclusion to the table, after which the nonscoring team will get to put the ball in play by a throwin on the endline during which they can "run the line".

Now let's make the situation more complex. No eye contact is made, the officials don't realize that they have made different calls, nor does the scorekeeper realize that two officials made two different calls, so the scorekeeper doesn't blow the horn for an immediate conference. Several possessions later, including a few dead ball periods, a coach realizes that the score isn't right because one team has either been credited with a three that they didn't deserve, or with a two that was a three. The coach calls timeout to discuss this situation, the time limit for a correctable error has long passed.

Now, answer me this. Is this a true correctable error situation, that cannot now be corrected due to the time limit? Or. Is this a bookkeeping mistake, because the scorekeeper looked at only one official, not two, and didn't realize that there were two differing calls?

[jdw3018]

You've made it more clear, BillyMac - your scenario is the exact one I'm asking about.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

You've made it more clear, BillyMac - your scenario is the exact one I'm asking about.

Hopefully we'll get some help from the Forum. I'm not going to try this one, yet, unless I have to.

[w_sohl]

saying this is a book keeping error and could correct it at any time before you leave the floor at games end.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

No eye contact is made, the officials don't realize that they have made different calls, nor does the scorekeeper realize that two officials made two different calls, so the scorekeeper doesn't blow the horn for an immediate conference. Several possessions later, including a few dead ball periods, a coach realizes that the score isn't right because one team has either been credited with a three that they didn't deserve, or with a two that was a three. The coach calls timeout to discuss this situation, the time limit for a correctable error has long passed.

Now, answer me this. Is this a true correctable error situation, that cannot now be corrected due to the time limit? Or. Is this a bookkeeping mistake, because the scorekeeper looked at only one official, not two, and didn't realize that there were two differing calls?

This isn't a bookkeeping mistake. In both situations, one of the officials gave the wrong signal.....and in both situations the scorer went with that wrong signal. That makes it an official's mistake, not a bookkeeping mistake.

Any officials' mistakes like this falls under the correctable error section...rule 2-10-1(e).... and thus could only be corrected subject to the time limit parameters set out in the rule book in R2-10. Also see case book play 2.10.1SitF(a).

If the correct signal had been given by the official and the scorer then marked it down wrong, it would be a bookkeeping mistake instead of an official's mistake, and thus would be correctable up until the final score is approved. See rule 2-11-11 and case book play 2.10.1SitF(b).

To sum up:
- official's mistake---->correctable error with time limits.
- scorer's mistake---> can be corrected at any time until the game is over.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

I think that you could get away with saying this is a book keeping error and could correct it at any time before you leave the floor at games end.

Getting away with it and being right aren't necessarily the same thing.

Right or wrong, you know that one of the head coaches is gonna b!tch at you.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

To sum up:
- official's mistake---->correctable error with time limits.
- scorer's mistake---> can be corrected at any time until the game is over.

Thanks, JR. This is exactly what I was thinking, but obviously I wasn't sure!

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Great question. The answer to this is easy if both officials make eye contact with each other, realize that their call is not the same as their partner's, blow the whistle to stop the clock during the dead ball period after the ball goes through the basket, confer to see who got the best look, come to a mutually agreed upon conclusion, and report this mutually agreed upon conclusion to the table, after which the nonscoring team will get to put the ball in play by a throwin on the endline during which they can "run the line".

I am not sure I buy this mechanic. If there is any doubt, it's two, with two officials signalling different signals there must be some doubt and someone clearly saw the two... Go with two. There is no need to discuss this, make sure scorer knows and keep the game going...

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I am not sure I buy this mechanic. If there is any doubt, it's two, with two officials signalling different signals there must be some doubt and someone clearly saw the two... Go with two. There is no need to discuss this, make sure scorer knows and keep the game going...

How else do you make sure the scorer knows? If I have 2, and a partner signals 3, I'm blowing the whistle immediately and we're getting together (briefly) to figure it out, then making sure the scorer knows.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

With two officials signaling different signals there must be some doubt and someone clearly saw the two.

Why do you assume that the the official with the "clearer" look saw the two, while the one with the "doubt" saw a three?

Couldn't your quote read: With two officials signaling different signals there must be some doubt and someone clearly saw the three?

You may be right about one thing. Since the three point line was added to the game, many, many, years ago, in all cases of different signals near that gray-area, lead side, foul line extended, for two man games, we've gone with two points 99%, if not 100%, of the time. But it's still worth getting together for a few seconds, and confirming with the scorekeeper, to get it right, because as Jurassic Referee stated, this is a correctable error situation, and we don't want the time limit to pass before we try, and by rule, fail, to get it right.