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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 24, 2008, 09:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I was not admonishing you. I just wanted to make it clear to you and others that if you stop worrying about the system and work within the system. And in our system you did exactly what I tell people to do all the time. It appears that advice (not just me I am sure) worked out for you. I just think there are people that say politics is the reason they do not accomplish things, but they never take responsibility for their own failures or shortcomings. And if you look at me there are many people that feel I am connected to all kinds of people and I get opportunities that I have because of those connections. Now if that is true, why is it that I cannot work on of the most famous tournaments in the country? There are places all of us cannot get into or people that will not hire us. Just do a little research and you will see even the most big time officials cannot go places because the right (or wrong) people do not like them or respect their abilities (or outside stuff we will never know about).

My problem has always been that people want to believe that they are being held back because someone is making decisions in the back room or because they do not go to the bar. Then they chalk it up to "politics" instead of what they are unwilling to do to be seen. Each official is their own salesperson and it is up to each of us to sell ourselves because most of the time no one else will.

Peace
Great post, as usual.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 24, 2008, 10:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Dan:

In Ohio, officials are not evaluated. The coaches tell the league assigners which officials can officiate varsity games in their league. One coach can black ball an officical from his league. Coaches vote on which officials can officiate in the post season tournament.

MTD, Sr.
Mark,

Isn't this an evaluation process?
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 24, 2008, 10:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
Dan,

I apologize for "the best" comment. I should have said that the opportunity to be the best anywhere exists here.
All I'm saying is that it's great to have NCAA Division 1, 2, and 3 -- men's and women's side -- officials on the instructional staff of our association available to officials to glean knowledge from. Also the opportunity to do high quality games throughout the year lends itself to rapid improvement.
It wasn't about getting an apology out of you, but since you offer it I'll accept it for the rest of the forum. There are a lot of damn good officials in every part of the country and there are also some really bad ones. No one area holds the keys to this game. I think we agree on that.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 24, 2008, 10:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
This has cost me games. I will not pay $300 for a camp just to work a high school conference. If I want to go to a camp, I'll go, but just to break even for a half-dozen high school games? No thanks.
I have never paid more than a $150 to attend a HS only camp. And the camp where I paid $150, I was seen by multiple assignors for both college and high school leagues. And I was evaluated by D1 officials and I get another chance to work 3 Person and see more plays, very worth it to me. I make enough money during the season I have no problem investing in myself to see where I have come while officiating.

Most HS camps are in the $50 to $60 dollar range in my area. And you are paying for some extra power points in our over all playoff system.

Some people like going out to eat after every game. I use my money that I make during the season to attend camps and to pick up other officiating related expenses. Not a big deal as far as I am concerned.

Peace
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 24, 2008, 10:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Mark,

Isn't this an evaluation process?

Dan:

No it isn't. Before an official can get a varsity game from a league assigner, that official must have his name given to the assigner by a coach in the league. If no official will recommend the official that official will not get games. And all it takes is one coach to tell an assigner that he doesn't want him in the league and that official is out. There is not evaluation process.

MTD, Sr.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 24, 2008, 10:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Dan:

No it isn't. Before an official can get a varsity game from a league assigner, that official must have his name given to the assigner by a coach in the league. If no official will recommend the official that official will not get games. And all it takes is one coach to tell an assigner that he doesn't want him in the league and that official is out. There is not evaluation process.

MTD, Sr.
I'm sorry Mark, but this is an evaluation process. Official X recommends or does not recommend official Y for varsity games. Official X has evaluated official Y and he decides either Y is or isn't ready. If Y gets enough positive evaluations he's in, otherwise he's not.

Blacklisting is a way for coaches to evaluate officials that has an immediate impact for that coach.

You may not like it, but evaluation is exactly what this is.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 24, 2008, 10:52pm
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Welcome to the real world of officiating. That is a very common occurrence at the local level and at the college level to make you go to camps. Look, when people assign you games they have a right to require some things. Just because it is not something we like does not mean it is an unfair request.


Rut, I'm not disagreeing with you. Once, again I'm trying to point out at the local association level they put additional requirements on officials after they have agreed to join them. These additional requirments are not covered in their operating procedures (constitution and by-laws). Like working five(5) games for free.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 25, 2008, 12:07am
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I have a couple points on these issues.

- Rut is right regarding politics, he hit it dead on. Politics are going to exist in some form everywhere and a lot of it is a matter of perception. If you are one of the "good ol' boys" you probably don't see things the same way as the guy who feels held back. The key is to understand the situation and work within the situation rather than complain about it or even try to change it. A situation usually exists because most of the people accept it.

- Control what you can control. If you recognize that certain people don't like you or your game (which happens to everyone), find someone who thinks differently and work for that person. If you are in a situation where you can't find anyone who will give you any sort of a shot, you need to either move somewhere else or make changes in yourself. The only people who I have seen in this business who have been unable to get a shot from absolutely anyone are people who need to look in the mirror rather than at politics.

- One of the reasons the good old boys continually get big assignments is that they've proven dependable in the past to the assignor and are known to the coaches. An assignor can get himself in a lot of heat for putting someone who's not ready on a big game if something happens in that game, whereas his backside is covered if something happens in the game with the vets. One of the values of experience is proven reliability, which is a huge attribute to an assignor.

- As someone who's moved up fairly quickly, there's great advice on here about not rushing up the ladder. I was very eager to break into college quickly as it is somewhat competitive now with younger officials, and thought I was ready a year before I got in. I am glad that I took that year and my coordinator is breaking me in slowly because it means that I will be ready and able to handle things better. Coaches have long memories, as do assignors, and I've seen careers fizzle from rushing up too early.

- Don't take all praise literally. An easy way to think you're getting politicked out of games is if you go to a camp and they tell you you're the greatest thing since sliced bread and you hear all the talk about higher levels, then you go back to your small school V schedule or a mixed JV/V schedule in your association. The best thing about camp is the criticism and learning how to self evaluate to improve, but it's easy to start seeing stars and losing perspective. The easiest way to fail as an official IMO is to start being jealous of fellow refs and comparing yourself to them rather than focusing on improving yourself.

Sorry for the ramble, but this is my take on politics.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 25, 2008, 08:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMEngmann
Sorry for the ramble, but this is my take on politics.
No need to apologize, that's all good stuff. I think JRut & yourself nailed it!
Although I'm just a young official, hearing the "political" excuse is already old to me. Most cases are people who think they are better than they really are or people whose time has come & gone...

Does politics in officiating assigning/advancement exist? Of course, but no more than the politics in our everyday lives ie: work, relationships, etc.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 25, 2008, 08:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I have never paid more than a $150 to attend a HS only camp. And the camp where I paid $150, I was seen by multiple assignors for both college and high school leagues. And I was evaluated by D1 officials and I get another chance to work 3 Person and see more plays, very worth it to me. I make enough money during the season I have no problem investing in myself to see where I have come while officiating.

Most HS camps are in the $50 to $60 dollar range in my area. And you are paying for some extra power points in our over all playoff system.

Some people like going out to eat after every game. I use my money that I make during the season to attend camps and to pick up other officiating related expenses. Not a big deal as far as I am concerned.

Peace
Camps to me are the cost of doing business and the business happens to be officiating. Foremost, I enjoy camps, they act as a barometer to gauge my improvement. As you mentioned , and I think you're refering to the same camp, you have the opportunity to be seen by some of the best D1 guys around. How can you top that? You're also being seen by assignors and that leads to more and better games. I don't go to hear that I did a good job, I want the light bulb to go off, when an evaluator gives me a little nuance or philosophy that he uses. I have a favorite guy at the camp who never fails to give me an insight on how he manages a game. It's invaluable.

I just know every year I'm spending a few bucks on camps. One weekend during the season doing kids games more than pays the tab for two or three of them.

And to tag onto the discussion, I don't compare myself to other officials there, I only want to improve my game.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 25, 2008, 01:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I'm sorry Mark, but this is an evaluation process. Official X recommends or does not recommend official Y for varsity games. Official X has evaluated official Y and he decides either Y is or isn't ready. If Y gets enough positive evaluations he's in, otherwise he's not.

Blacklisting is a way for coaches to evaluate officials that has an immediate impact for that coach.

You may not like it, but evaluation is exactly what this is.

Dan:

I hate to disagree with you but the OhioHSAA does not have an evaluation process. There are not forms for coaches to fill out (even though I doubt a coach could complete one, ), coaches recommend officials who they like based upon whether they agree with the officials' calls or not. It is a giant popularity contest.

MTD, Sr.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 25, 2008, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie
Rut, I'm not disagreeing with you. Once, again I'm trying to point out at the local association level they put additional requirements on officials after they have agreed to join them. These additional requirments are not covered in their operating procedures (constitution and by-laws). Like working five(5) games for free.
If you are expecting every policy to be in the constitution or by-laws, then that is a very unrealistic request. When people hire you, they do not tell you all the little things you have to do. I do not see working 5 games to be evaluated as unreasonable. And I certainly do not feel that has to be spelled out for you. If you do not want to do it, then you suffer the consequences. And if you cannot work 5 games to get a chance at real games in the season, then I would not want you on the real games as an assignor.

Peace
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 25, 2008, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
As far as what I work, could I ask you the same question?
Well, I'm pretty much retired now from active officiating due to a combination of age and bad knees. I do try to keep a little bit involved though by both training and evaluating officials, as well as also assigning all area games- in both football and basketball.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 25, 2008, 02:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, I'm pretty much retired now from active officiating due to a combination of age and bad knees. I do try to keep a little bit involved though by both training and evaluating officials, as well as also assigning all area games- in both football and basketball.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 25, 2008, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
40 JC's, 8 D3's, 11 NAIA, 8 D2, 6 D1 conferences -- available to SoCal officials
This is the key to the "college-ready in 3 years" statement.

This is not just true in basketball, but several other sports as well. If an official shows any talent or potential, the college assignors will snap them up in a hurry. They have so many games to cover, they need the bodies. New college officials will start at the JC/NAIA/D3 level for a few years, if they show that they can handle that, they move up to D2. It is still not easy to make it to D1, but at least the D1 assignors know that they are getting an official that has had a good amount of college level work.

Personally, I have seen and worked with SoCal officials in the two sports I have been involved in that I wouldn't trust on a girls JV game. I have also seen some very good officials from SoCal. SoCal is just like anywhere else..there are good officials and bad officials....you can't just measure quality by what level of ball you work.
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