Association politics

[Camron Rust]

Taking this to a new thread....replying to http://forum.officiating.com/showpost.php?p=445881&postcount=53

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Camron, the problem is that there are certain "top" (and it's interesting, isn't it that all the top folks are guys?) who simply can't believe anyone could possibly be as good as they are, and they don't even try to help. They are polite and "encouraging" to your face, but what they tell you is meaningless at best or downright unhelpful. I know you don't believe this. But the fact of the matter is, it's true.

First, you show me more than 1-2 women who have spent 15-20 years officiating…the amount that those top guys took to get to the top (and the same amount of time that ten times as many men spent and never reached the top) and we’ll talk about that point. The fact is, most new officials (both men and women) want a quick jump to the top and aren’t willing to work their way up the same as the guys at the top have already done. They claim it is unfair after 2-6 years and quit.

The women that do spend the time find bigger opportunities that just aren’t open to men and just move on...a good thing for them. You can’t deny that women’s college assignors will hire a female over a male just about any day if the female is merely in the same ballpark as the male.

You also talk as if everyone should be obligated to teach and be helpful. In a utopian world it might happen. The fact of the matter is that some people don't care about you or anyone but themselves and their closest friends. They have no obligation to association, you, or anyone else. While they (most) don't try to harm anyone else, they have no interest in helping others. Would you rather them just say "You suck" to someone that asks and walk away? How would that be any more helpful?

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I've seen them roll their eyes behind backs, and I've had a few things said directly to my face about myself and about others. The things I'm talking about aren't meant to give the official real advice, just to get themselves away from the "plebes". Comments like, "Just keep working hard", "Well, you just have to keep watching others" and "You need to really think about your goals and dreams." How is that gonna help me get better? Or anyone?

On more than one occasion, I've tried to offer solicited advice only to be met with argumentative disagreement. It's all too common. Such behavior makes those initially willing to help stop trying. It’s not worth the headaches to many.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Then they say that people just don't improve enough to "keep from embarassing the association at the tournament."

Again, people go through the motions of asking for help but then discount everything they’re told. Asking is not enough…listening and believing is required.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Sorry, you pushed my buttons. The bare fact is that there are some terrific people in our association who really want to "give back" and help people get better. Those folks tend to move up eventually and move out. People like Lea, Spitz and Hefty. There are other helpful and encouraging folks who haven't moved out, but they tend to be busy, and aren't always available to help. A couple notable exceptions are Simshaw and Frostad. Then there are others who simply want to stand on the pedestal, and stomp on the fingers of those who are trying to climb up the mountain. I won't mention names, but I'm sure you know a few of who I mean.

Sure there are great people who want to give back. You're never going to get everyone in that boat.


Sure, some people don't want to help others topple them from their perch…insecure in their ability to keep their place on merit. That's their choice...nothing says that they should be willing to help anyone that asks. How many teams see their opponents struggling and give them pointers on how to beat them? It is a competitive field.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I know there are those who don't move up and just complain about how it's all politics and they don't take responsibility. But some of those who complain, have a legitimate beef. I'm thinking of a particular person who has been in the association 17 years, has worked a D2 national semi and only just this year made it to a hs tournament, and then only 2A. Ya gotta admit, that doesn't look good for the assoc. And you can't say his race wasn't a factor in that issue.

I know exactly who you are talking about. Having been in the association since 1993, I only first met the guy about 1-2 years ago....just never crossed paths. I had never seen him work a game at all, ever. I don't vote for people who I've never seen work. Since I saw him work a game, I've voted for him ever since. There are several reasons he may not be noticed. Among them are that he seems like a quiet guy that keeps to himself...something that would work against him in a voting system. He also works a limited HS schedule (less than 1/2 the number of games of the average varsity official)...making few chances for others (officials and coaches) to see him and know who he is or how good he is. I've never seen him in a spring, summer, or fall league game....maybe he does a few but Can't vote for a guy that you don't see work.

Was race a factor? Could be. More than likely the larger contribution was his lack of visibility. If race was really the factor, why did he and another minority make it at all...2 out of 19....a more than representative number....both by vote the vote of the rest of the association.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If the point had really been to send "only the best refs" to the tournament, and to "protect the reputation of the association" this person would have gone to 6A this year, and a certain person who went to 6A (girls) wouldn't have gone at all.

There were certainly several officials better than some of the ones that did go. But that was what the association wanted. They gave the commissioner explicit picks to the tourney so he could send some women (as well as minorities) even if there were 30-40 men that were better. The association wanted the commissioner to send people just like the one you're refering to...people that are (were) really good but were not appropriate recognized by their peers. Some even believe that there were people in the 6A boys who were in over their head.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

It's NOT just about being the best ref. Association politics, gender and race and other outside issues do enter the equation. There's no way you can deny it.

In fact, the current system favored the very groups of people you're refering to....minorities and women were represented among the tourney selections at greater numbers than thier membership in the association.

[wanja]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Can't vote for a guy that you don't see work.

Providing the opportunites to be looked at seems to be key here. If there is not a consistent process in place for who gets looked at and how, then happenstance, old boyism and other factors not having to do with ability will play a greater role. Formal observations, consistent criteria, cross checking the evaluators and publicizing the process results in better officials and moves the avocation forward.

[JRutledge]

Politics is a reality of life. If it was not we probably would not have the current President that we have now for this country. I am not saying this as a political statement; I am saying that as a reality. Just like people get into colleges because their parents went there, people get all kinds of opportunities in life because they are related to or they know someone very well. Or someone might have an opportunity because they know someone very well. And if you think it does not apply to officiating, just look at the roster of the NFL, Major League Baseball and even the NBA. You would be surprised of all the officials that are working those levels have relatives or parents that worked that very league or they have powerful officiating parents who assign major D1 leagues.

That being said we also as individuals worry way too much about this issue. Most people in officiating do not get ahead simply on a political edge. Of course politics plays a role, but it is not the end all be all position. I would also say to Juulie that some of your references in my opinion sound a little out of place. No one has to help you. And if someone is telling you to continue to work hard, that does not mean they are pushing you off or not trying to help you. Not everyone is going to give detailed evaluations to yours or my liking. When I have gotten detailed evaluations, I usually had to press them to give that kind of evaluation. Also depending on your interaction, I know from experience I might not say a lot of things to your face because it would not be taken well or it would not be appropriate for that kind of evaluation. For example if you are going to a camp that is to hire people, most observers are not going to give you a lot of personal information without being asked in a one on one situation.

Let me also address this. Working a college schedule is not a guarantee that you will be able to work a HS post season game. Many times HS post season is going on at the very same time that college games are going on especially at the lower level colleges. So just because someone got a high level college post season assignment, does not mean they are available to even work. And in some circles right or wrong there are people that think people that dedicate their seasons to college should not be working HS post season games.

The problem with this discussion is there are so many dynamics to it that will change from one organization to another.

Peace

[Jay R]

So Jeff, you're saying Bush is President because of poltitics? Made me chuckle.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jay R

So Jeff, you're saying Bush is President because of poltitics? Made me chuckle.

No, I am saying he became President on his family history more than the merit. No different than a current candidate that is in the spotlight because of their spouse.

But I get the joke BTW.

Peace

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No, I am saying he became President on his family history more than the merit. No different than a current candidate that is in the spotlight because of her spouse.

But I get the joke BTW.

Peace

Just filling in for Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No, I am saying he became President on his family history more than the merit.

Well, his opponents didn't offer much in the race either...particulary in the first election...the voters essentially had to pick which one they tought was the least bad.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No different than a current candidate that is in the spotlight because of their spouse.

[BktBallRef]

Wow. Got some bitterness issues, Cam?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Wow. Got some bitterness issues, Cam?

Not at all. I'm actually very happy with where I am. I'm treated fairly and have no complaint about my place in things. You nor any one else has ever or will ever hear me complain about my own situation. I'm not the type to complain and blame others for my position in things. My rate of advancement has been far more under my control than anything else.

True, I didn't go to the tourney....but I also didn't expect to go to the tourney. Even if a few of the people that did go were not actually picked, there were still a few others more capable and deserving to go than myself. I'm getting closer every year and I do expect to make it at some point....maybe this year, maybe not.

I was one of the stronger proponents of the general principles by which we changed our tourney selection system....to allow the commissioner to pick people directly in order to ensure that women and minorities had fair opportunities...you can check my posting history on that very topic about 1 year ago when we briefly talked about our new system. I was simply highly suprised at some of the specific commish's pick. I didn't expect to be one of them.

I simply get tired of people always whining and moaning about the way things are when, for the most part, they only have themselves to blame for their lack of progress. It's all too easy to blame a good ole boy system, racial or gender discrimination, or favoritism....they are popular and inherently strong, highly sensitive, arguments....ones in which taking opposing views often serves to get you labeled as a good ole boy, racist, or chauvinist. I'm just more willing than most to call it BS when it is.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The problem with this discussion is there are so many dynamics to it that will change from one organization to another.

Exactly. A neighboring association to Portland may not have these problems, but they also may have their own, completely different set of problems.

None of 'em(us) are perfect. You have to play the hand that you're dealt.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Well, his opponents didn't offer much in the race either...particulary in the first election...the voters essentially had to pick which one they tought was the least bad.

That made me chuckle (inside) but it is a sad statement.
Did he really get elected the first time?
The second time is beyond my understanding...why America why?!!

I agree there are politics in life and basketball officiating is no different. The sad part is the biggest losers are the players. I love this game and it sickens me to see what goes on that doesn't do justice to the game. I can take myself out of the equation and say we are not putting our best foot forward and IMO it just hurts the game.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by tomegun

That made me chuckle (inside) but it is a sad statement.
Did he really get elected the first time?

Completely off-topic and I will not be upset if it gets deleted. But:

It's time for hardcore Democrats to give up this illusion. Three separate Florida newspapers (Orlando, Miami and Tamp/St. Pete) did separate hand recounts of the Florida ballots. A university (I believe it was the University of Wisconsin) Political Science department also did its own independent study of the ballots. All four studies determined that Bush received the most votes in Florida. Additionally, it's likely (although this is just a guess) that he would have received even more votes in the panhandle of Florida if the media reports hadn't declared Gore the winner prematurely.

Like him or hate him, he won. It's time to stop whining about it. (Full disclosure: I am NOT registered Republican.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Completely off-topic and I will not be upset if it gets deleted. But:

It's time for hardcore Democrats to give up this illusion. Three separate Florida newspapers (Orlando, Miami and Tamp/St. Pete) did separate hand recounts of the Florida ballots. A university (I believe it was the University of Wisconsin) Political Science department also did its own independent study of the ballots. All four studies determined that Bush received the most votes in Florida. Additionally, it's likely (although this is just a guess) that he would have received even more votes in the panhandle of Florida if the media reports hadn't declared Gore the winner prematurely.

Like him or hate him, he won. It's time to stop whining about it. (Full disclosure: I am NOT registered Republican.)

[Bad Zebra]

No matter what the ballot looked like, we still would have found a way to screw it up. It's Florida. That's what we do.

Interesting transition..Association Politics to Florida ballots.

[Odd Duck]

This is long…sorry. The way I look at advancing, and this may only apply in our association, is that I play the biggest role in my advancement.

My association tries to have evaluators watch the lower level officials work. The problem is that there are simply not many retired officials who are willing to do this task. In an attempt to compensate, the assignment secretary will try to assign a “prospect” to a sub-varsity game where the varsity match-up will be high profile…regardless of the quality of the sub-varsity competition. For example, early last season I received a call from one of our board members informing me he would be at my game to watch me work the first half…a game I almost refused because the visiting team is ALWAYS horrible (JV and varsity were not playing the same school)…because the assignment secretary wanted “feedback on my readiness”. He liked what he saw at our camp and wanted another opinion.

Just working hard will not assure advancement. I can work hard and be out of position, have lousy foul call selection and not be able to handle an irritated coach. I need to work hard on improving the areas where I am deficient. If you go to teaching camps, you cannot say you don’t know what those areas are in your game…you were given evaluations…go back and read them every week (if not before every game).

Speaking of camps…I need to choose them wisely. I can go to good camps that will not help in the short term. Living in Texas, going to Coast to Coast or similar camps out of state will not give the “powers that be” in my association an opportunity to see me work and measure my improvement. I need to go to camps where those people will either be on staff or always go to observe officials from my association.

I need to be physically ready when the season starts. Being 90 percent can be bad. Early in the season, at least around here, there are game on almost every night. When district play starts, the games are usually only on Tuesday and Friday. That means the people that need to see me will have to observe early in the season.

Become one of the rules and mechanic gurus in your association. You do not have to be the most athletic person in the association to know the rules and proper mechanics. I have found that if you can nail those two things you take a big step forward.

I also need to play “the political game”…volunteer or just show up and help with the training of new officials (because board members and the assignment secretary are there as well). Volunteer to serve of standing committees and help with special events (like the State Meeting we are hosting). Find out if any of those people have “pet projects” that they support and make an appearance. For example, the association president always plays in a particular charity golf tournament…this year I took a day off and played in it as well. I did not play with him, but had several opportunities to meet his friends and socialize with them…giving him a chance to get to know me better.

If you are doing all those things and still not progressing (or having obstacles thrown in your way) then you are facing a problem that may not have a solution.