How good/bad is your association involved in politics?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Wow, ya'll are spoiled around the country. We are required to attend 18 hours of instruction in unit meetings before we're even qualified to work one game.....And pass a 200 question test....and another 100 question test.
That's 7 meetings besides any camps or clinics.

18 hrs of instruction EVERY YEAR??

If so that is plain nuts.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

18 hrs of instruction EVERY YEAR??

If so that is plain nuts.

Dan:

I lived in Glendale, Calf. from 1982 until 1984 and was a member of the San Gabriel Valley Unit of the Southern Calf. Bkb. Off. Assn. for the 82-83 and 83-84 season. And the requirements that SoCalRef goes through every year we in place even then. I had been officiating basketball since 1971 and thought the requirements were great for H.S. officiating and still think that they are great for H.S. officiating. IAABO states have a mandatory yearly exam and meeting requirements too. I can honestly say that every game I officiated in Calf., I officiated with a partner who really knew his stuff. Here in Ohio I have officiated varsity games with officials that I would not want to officiate a jr. H.S. game with and it is even worse with many officials from Michigan.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. When I was in Calf. I was evaluated anywhere from 6 to 8 times a year and these evaluations determined whether you officiated in the CIF tournament or not and whether you stayed a varsity official or were dropped down to JV and FR ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I can honestly say that every game I officiated in Calf., I officiated with a partner who really knew his stuff.

Geeze, you didn't see that recent Mater Dei game, did you?

Of course, maybe those guys weren't third year officials. They might have been 10, 20 or 30 year officials and weren't qualified to do that game anymore.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Dan:

I lived in Glendale, Calf. from 1982 until 1984 and was a member of the San Gabriel Valley Unit of the Southern Calf. Bkb. Off. Assn. for the 82-83 and 83-84 season. And the requirements that SoCalRef goes through every year we in place even then. I had been officiating basketball since 1971 and thought the requirements were great for H.S. officiating and still think that they are great for H.S. officiating. IAABO states have a mandatory yearly exam and meeting requirements too. I can honestly say that every game I officiated in Calf., I officiated with a partner who really knew his stuff. Here in Ohio I have officiated varsity games with officials that I would not want to officiate a jr. H.S. game with and it is even worse with many officials from Michigan.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. When I was in Calf. I was evaluated anywhere from 6 to 8 times a year and these evaluations determined whether you officiated in the CIF tournament or not and whether you stayed a varsity official or were dropped down to JV and FR ball.

Mark, I noticed you refrained from using the words "best", "officials", "in", "the" and "country" in your post. We all have to attend meetings, we all get formal & informal training, we all take tests, we all get evaluated, we all move up & get dropped. Some of us do this for more than just 1 or even 2 associations. All but one of us can control themselves enough to not use the words in my list.

btw, I too lived in SoCal during the 80's and my experience with their basketball officials was spotty at best - but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are the worst in the country.

Opinions, we all have one. :shrug:

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

btw, I too lived in SoCal during the 80's and my experience with their basketball officials was spotty at best - but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are the worst in the country.

Opinions, we all have one. :shrug:

I think you could say that about just about any place in the country. I will say that some places are better than others and for example my state has had 3 Person training for years. I would say that that training has produced a lot of well versed officials in 3 Person. But I would not say that this produces the best officials in the country. Maybe there are opportunities that are larger than in other places to learn the 3 Person system, but that does not apply to every official that is exposed to that level of training.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Mark, I noticed you refrained from using the words "best", "officials", "in", "the" and "country" in your post. We all have to attend meetings, we all get formal & informal training, we all take tests, we all get evaluated, we all move up & get dropped. Some of us do this for more than just 1 or even 2 associations. All but one of us can control themselves enough to not use the words in my list.

btw, I too lived in SoCal during the 80's and my experience with their basketball officials was spotty at best - but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are the worst in the country.

Opinions, we all have one. :shrug:

Dan:

In Ohio, officials are not evaluated. The coaches tell the league assigners which officials can officiate varsity games in their league. One coach can black ball an officical from his league. Coaches vote on which officials can officiate in the post season tournament.

MTD, Sr.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Dan:

In Ohio, officials are not evaluated. The coaches tell the league assigners which officials can officiate varsity games in their league. One coach can black ball an officical from his league. Coaches vote on which officials can officiate in the post season tournament.

MTD, Sr.

Poetic justice would be allowing officials to vote on which coaches can coach in the post-season tournament.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Dan:

In Ohio, officials are not evaluated. The coaches tell the league assigners which officials can officiate varsity games in their league. One coach can black ball an officical from his league. Coaches vote on which officials can officiate in the post season tournament.

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

Isn't this an evaluation process?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Mark,

Isn't this an evaluation process?

Dan:

No it isn't. Before an official can get a varsity game from a league assigner, that official must have his name given to the assigner by a coach in the league. If no official will recommend the official that official will not get games. And all it takes is one coach to tell an assigner that he doesn't want him in the league and that official is out. There is not evaluation process.

MTD, Sr.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Dan:

No it isn't. Before an official can get a varsity game from a league assigner, that official must have his name given to the assigner by a coach in the league. If no official will recommend the official that official will not get games. And all it takes is one coach to tell an assigner that he doesn't want him in the league and that official is out. There is not evaluation process.

MTD, Sr.

I'm sorry Mark, but this is an evaluation process. Official X recommends or does not recommend official Y for varsity games. Official X has evaluated official Y and he decides either Y is or isn't ready. If Y gets enough positive evaluations he's in, otherwise he's not.

Blacklisting is a way for coaches to evaluate officials that has an immediate impact for that coach.

You may not like it, but evaluation is exactly what this is.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Dan,

I apologize for "the best" comment. I should have said that the opportunity to be the best anywhere exists here.
All I'm saying is that it's great to have NCAA Division 1, 2, and 3 -- men's and women's side -- officials on the instructional staff of our association available to officials to glean knowledge from. Also the opportunity to do high quality games throughout the year lends itself to rapid improvement.

Well what you just suggested is not unique to where you live. I belong to multiple organizations that have D1 officials working with officials and running camps. And we do not have an "instructional staff" to accomplish a high level of training. So what you are describing is not something only in one part of the country. I am sure there are many places that have officials that work all those levels.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well what you just suggested is not unique to where you live. I belong to multiple organizations that have D1 officials working with officials and running camps. And we do not have an "instructional staff" to accomplish a high level of training. So what you are describing is not something only in one part of the country. I am sure there are many places that have officials that work all those levels.

That's just crazy talk, Jeff.

Heresy! Heresy, I tell ya!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by socalreff

I know there are many high level officials that work with officials at camps, etc.
I was saying that in addition to that, those officials are involved in the 18 hours of instruction. It helps to develop officials more quickly.
And I'm not saying it automatically makes all the officials better. Obviously, it is still incumbent on each official to seize the opportunities that are there.
I've seen plenty of people stagnate and not do the things it takes to get better.

You keep focusing on the 18 hours as if everyone learns the same way or picks up on the information equally. Unfortunately that is not always true and if that time in training becomes redundant or tiresome for many, than you have officials that are not picking up on everything. And if I am not mistaken, your area is not working 3 Person across the board for all games. If that is the case (and I could be wrong) then what are officials really getting out of the training when so much of officiating is understanding and practicing a system that helps officials get to the next level.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Dan,

I apologize for "the best" comment. I should have said that the opportunity to be the best anywhere exists here.
All I'm saying is that it's great to have NCAA Division 1, 2, and 3 -- men's and women's side -- officials on the instructional staff of our association available to officials to glean knowledge from. Also the opportunity to do high quality games throughout the year lends itself to rapid improvement.

It wasn't about getting an apology out of you, but since you offer it I'll accept it for the rest of the forum. There are a lot of damn good officials in every part of the country and there are also some really bad ones. No one area holds the keys to this game. I think we agree on that.

[Adam]

My, how parochial of you.