6 Men on the Floor

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Same here. Never have prevented a problem though. The most common thing is more numbers in book then players.

I do it....and have prevented a T about once a year.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's a team technical foul. No mercy. There is no rules justification to do what they did.

I agree, but.. the refs should also have been slapped upside the head for failing to notice before hand.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by cshs81

I saw this in a high school game last night.

Ball was inbounded after a substitution. Offense dribbled to about halfcourt when the defensive coach mentioned to the officials that the offense had 6 players on the floor. No technical was called. Instead, the officials let the 6th player leave, started the play over and went on.

Was that the proper way to handle it or should a T have been called? If the official says "my mistake" does that negate the T? I thought it was odd.

In general, it is a T. There have been 1-2 cases where I've not called it. One that comes to mind is when, after a substitution, a 6th player thought they should be on the floor and ran off the bench. In this particular game, his team was getting crushed (30-40 point spread) and it was late in the 4th. I merely blew the whistle, got the 6th player off the court, and continued. The opposing coach, who had been a gentleman all evening, merely asked "That'd be a T in a closer game, right?". To which I responded, "Absolutely". By the book, No? The right call? Yes. Noone had any interest in rubbing salt in the wounds of the losing team.

[Mark Padgett]

One time I had a game in which a team came out of a timeout with six men on the floor. That was really weird, mostly because it was a women's game.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

I told him "Yes coach I am...but as the head coach you're the one still ultimately responsible for getting all of your players listed in the book." Fortunately he agreed and left it at that. Shame on me for not counting the players, but we still ended up giving the T, as should have been done here with the 6 players on the court.

Originally Posted by ma_ref

"If he knows a kid is gonna be late, then it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game,

I beleive that the coach is responsible for providing a correct roster prior to the 10 minute mark -- not for entering it into the book.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

It's the officials job to react if either the team or the scorer fails to do their jobs properly.

So, if the coach provides a complete and accurate roster, and the scorer enters it in the book INCORRECTLY, you are going to penalize that team for the scorer's mistake?

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What if a player is a little late getting there? Or a player is in the dressing room having a dump? Does your plan go down the dumper then too?

Let the scorer do his job.

Having a dump? Or leaving a dump?

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I beleive that the coach is responsible for providing a correct roster prior to the 10 minute mark -- not for entering it into the book.

How the data gets in the book is not important, but it is the coach's responsibility to verify that the information in the official book is accurate.

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

So, if the coach provides a complete and accurate roster, and the scorer enters it in the book INCORRECTLY, you are going to penalize that team for the scorer's mistake?

Yes, and actually I have handed out a T for this (it happened a few years ago, but I believe the scorer copied a uniform number incorrectly). I said before that, "it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game". Whether this is done via entering the players' names himself/herself, or by verifying that the scorer has transferred the names correctly, is completely up to the individual coach. But if the coach just leaves it up to the scorer to enter their roster (just a high school kid doing the book, more often than not), then that's on the coach's conscience if something goes wrong.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

How the data gets in the book is not important, but it is the coach's responsibility to verify that the information in the official book is accurate.


Yes, and actually I have handed out a T for this (it happened a few years ago, but I believe the scorer copied a uniform number incorrectly). I said before that, "it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game". Whether this is done via entering the players' names himself/herself, or by verifying that the scorer has transferred the names correctly, is completely up to the individual coach. But if the coach just leaves it up to the scorer to enter their roster (just a high school kid doing the book, more often than not), then that's on the coach's conscience if something goes wrong.

This isn't correct, ma ref. The coach is only responsible for supplying a correct list of players and starters prior to the 10 minute mark. It is not the coach's responsibility to check the scorers entries. That's why whenever there is a mistake in the book, you need to ask what was supplied to the scorer by the coach (that may be the book, for the home team, or the visitor's book for the visiting team).

Penalizing a team because the scorer screwed up is simply wrong. It is just a bookkeeping error.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

How the data gets in the book is not important, but it is the coach's responsibility to verify that the information in the official book is accurate.


Yes, and actually I have handed out a T for this (it happened a few years ago, but I believe the scorer copied a uniform number incorrectly). I said before that, "it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game". Whether this is done via entering the players' names himself/herself, or by verifying that the scorer has transferred the names correctly, is completely up to the individual coach. But if the coach just leaves it up to the scorer to enter their roster (just a high school kid doing the book, more often than not), then that's on the coach's conscience if something goes wrong.

You are completely wrong on this ma_ref. Rule 10-1-1: Art. 1... Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

There is NOTHING in the rulebook ANYWHERE saying that the head coach is responsible for verifying what is entered in the scorebook.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

One time I had a game in which a team came out of a timeout with six men on the floor. That was really weird, mostly because it was a women's game.

You still need to get help.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Quote:

So, if the coach provides a complete and accurate roster, and the scorer enters it in the book INCORRECTLY, you are going to penalize that team for the scorer's mistake?

JR said "react". I read "make it right".
Only you suggested penalizing a team.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I never counted the players pre-game in my life. It's the team's job to supply a correct roster and starters. It's the scorer's job to enter the team rosters and starting lineups as given into the book. It's the officials job to react if either the team or the scorer fails to do their jobs properly.

If somebody screws up pre-game, it ain't the officials' fault. It's also nonsense imo to place any blame at all for a pre-game screw-up on the officials.

If I am the R, prior to the game, I always take the official book, count the players listed, count the players on the court to see if they match, and then hand the book to each coach and have them look at it and OK it. It's my part of preventive officiating.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

One time I had a game in which a team came out of a timeout with six men on the floor. That was really weird, mostly because it was a women's game.

Are you sure it wasn't the East German swim team?

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by mick

JR said "react". I read "make it right".
Only you suggested penalizing a team.

I did not suggest any such thing. I simply asked a question.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by RefTip

I agree it is a T..... Question though, this came up last year while I was watching our JV team play . Our team comes out of timeout and there are 6 players on the floor . Play continues for about 20 seconds and I guess our coach realizes this and calls timeout. The two officials did not realize there were 6 players until after the timeout was called and the players were going to the bench. They then called a technical on our team for having 6 players. I was sitting next to another official and we were trying to determine if this was correct since the ball was dead when the violation was realized. After looking through the rules book I believe they got it right but wanted to get confirmation.

Thanks

I don't have my rule book handy, but doesn't six players have to penlized when discovered while the ball is live?

[MadCityRef]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

In general, it is a T. There have been 1-2 cases where I've not called it. One that comes to mind is when, after a substitution, a 6th player thought they should be on the floor and ran off the bench. In this particular game, his team was getting crushed (30-40 point spread) and it was late in the 4th. I merely blew the whistle, got the 6th player off the court, and continued. The opposing coach, who had been a gentleman all evening, merely asked "That'd be a T in a closer game, right?". To which I responded, "Absolutely". By the book, No? The right call? Yes. Noone had any interest in rubbing salt in the wounds of the losing team.

Absolutely correct, CR.