6 Men on the Floor

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

I beleive that the coach is responsible for providing a correct roster prior to the 10 minute mark -- not for entering it into the book.

How the data gets in the book is not important, but it is the coach's responsibility to verify that the information in the official book is accurate.

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

So, if the coach provides a complete and accurate roster, and the scorer enters it in the book INCORRECTLY, you are going to penalize that team for the scorer's mistake?

Yes, and actually I have handed out a T for this (it happened a few years ago, but I believe the scorer copied a uniform number incorrectly). I said before that, "it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game". Whether this is done via entering the players' names himself/herself, or by verifying that the scorer has transferred the names correctly, is completely up to the individual coach. But if the coach just leaves it up to the scorer to enter their roster (just a high school kid doing the book, more often than not), then that's on the coach's conscience if something goes wrong.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

How the data gets in the book is not important, but it is the coach's responsibility to verify that the information in the official book is accurate.


Yes, and actually I have handed out a T for this (it happened a few years ago, but I believe the scorer copied a uniform number incorrectly). I said before that, "it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game". Whether this is done via entering the players' names himself/herself, or by verifying that the scorer has transferred the names correctly, is completely up to the individual coach. But if the coach just leaves it up to the scorer to enter their roster (just a high school kid doing the book, more often than not), then that's on the coach's conscience if something goes wrong.

This isn't correct, ma ref. The coach is only responsible for supplying a correct list of players and starters prior to the 10 minute mark. It is not the coach's responsibility to check the scorers entries. That's why whenever there is a mistake in the book, you need to ask what was supplied to the scorer by the coach (that may be the book, for the home team, or the visitor's book for the visiting team).

Penalizing a team because the scorer screwed up is simply wrong. It is just a bookkeeping error.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by ma_ref

How the data gets in the book is not important, but it is the coach's responsibility to verify that the information in the official book is accurate.


Yes, and actually I have handed out a T for this (it happened a few years ago, but I believe the scorer copied a uniform number incorrectly). I said before that, "it's the coach's repsonsibility to make sure that player is listed properly in the book prior to the start of the game". Whether this is done via entering the players' names himself/herself, or by verifying that the scorer has transferred the names correctly, is completely up to the individual coach. But if the coach just leaves it up to the scorer to enter their roster (just a high school kid doing the book, more often than not), then that's on the coach's conscience if something goes wrong.

You are completely wrong on this ma_ref. Rule 10-1-1: Art. 1... Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

There is NOTHING in the rulebook ANYWHERE saying that the head coach is responsible for verifying what is entered in the scorebook.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Quote:

So, if the coach provides a complete and accurate roster, and the scorer enters it in the book INCORRECTLY, you are going to penalize that team for the scorer's mistake?

JR said "react". I read "make it right".
Only you suggested penalizing a team.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by mick

JR said "react". I read "make it right".
Only you suggested penalizing a team.

I did not suggest any such thing. I simply asked a question.

[Raymond]

I saw a Big South game on TV the other night. Visiting team player turns his ankle during a scrum which leads to a dead ball. Player is still struggling to get up at the same time multiple subs are coming in game, including one for injured player.

While injured player is still in front court the administering official allows throw-in. The player limps past the official right in front of the table during the live ball and the official, in an irritated manner, kinda pushes (or guides with his forearm) the player to get out of the way.

[RefTip]

I agree it is a T..... Question though, this came up last year while I was watching our JV team play . Our team comes out of timeout and there are 6 players on the floor . Play continues for about 20 seconds and I guess our coach realizes this and calls timeout. The two officials did not realize there were 6 players until after the timeout was called and the players were going to the bench. They then called a technical on our team for having 6 players. I was sitting next to another official and we were trying to determine if this was correct since the ball was dead when the violation was realized. After looking through the rules book I believe they got it right but wanted to get confirmation.

Thanks

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by RefTip

I agree it is a T..... Question though, this came up last year while I was watching our JV team play . Our team comes out of timeout and there are 6 players on the floor . Play continues for about 20 seconds and I guess our coach realizes this and calls timeout. The two officials did not realize there were 6 players until after the timeout was called and the players were going to the bench. They then called a technical on our team for having 6 players. I was sitting next to another official and we were trying to determine if this was correct since the ball was dead when the violation was realized. After looking through the rules book I believe they got it right but wanted to get confirmation.

Thanks

I don't have my rule book handy, but doesn't six players have to penlized when discovered while the ball is live?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

I don't have my rule book handy, but doesn't six players have to penlized when discovered while the ball is live?

NFHS 10-1-6 A team shall not...have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Penalty: Penalized if discovered while being violated.

Have a look at 10.1.6 as well.

[mightyvol]

Originally Posted by RefTip

I agree it is a T..... Question though, this came up last year while I was watching our JV team play . Our team comes out of timeout and there are 6 players on the floor . Play continues for about 20 seconds and I guess our coach realizes this and calls timeout. The two officials did not realize there were 6 players until after the timeout was called and the players were going to the bench. They then called a technical on our team for having 6 players. I was sitting next to another official and we were trying to determine if this was correct since the ball was dead when the violation was realized. After looking through the rules book I believe they got it right but wanted to get confirmation.

Thanks

Can someone answer this concerning NFHS Rules? I saw this happen earlier this season. The officials got together and decided that they could not call a T since they werent 100% sure that the one team had six players on the court and plus they said that in order for it to be a T they had to catch it during a live ball situation. Were they correct?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by mightyvol

Can someone answer this concerning NFHS Rules? I saw this happen earlier this season. The officials got together and decided that they could not call a T since they werent 100% sure that the one team had six players on the court and plus they said that in order for it to be a T they had to catch it during a live ball situation. Were they correct?

10-1-6: A team shall not have more than 5 members participating simultaneously.

PENALTY: Penalized if discovered while being violated.

Live ball not specified. When is a player considered to be participating? Preparing for a throw in, players jockeying for position, I would consider that to be participation. Coach sees the problem, requests time out, you count six heading off the court, I have no problem with making the call then, others may disagree.

One thing I know. Nothing sends a buzz through the crowd any better than 6 on the court.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

10-1-6: A team shall not have more than 5 members participating simultaneously.

PENALTY: Penalized if discovered while being violated.

Think about it this way - if you can penalize this during a dead ball, then what about when you beckon a sub on the floor, and the other player takes their time getting off the floor - would you penalize that team for having 6 players on the court? Of course not, even though, by rule, the sub becomes a player the moment they are beckoned on the court. But they aren't "participating" at that moment.

I would think once the TO is called, there is even less basis for saying they are "participating". So, if the coach gets the TO granted, you have not "discovered while being violated" - you discovered it after the fact, therefore, too late to penalize.

[mightyvol]

bump......would love to have more opinions on this one....seems to be a 2 way street. Damned if you do damed if you dont?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by cshs81

I saw this in a high school game last night.

Ball was inbounded after a substitution. Offense dribbled to about halfcourt when the defensive coach mentioned to the officials that the offense had 6 players on the floor. No technical was called. Instead, the officials let the 6th player leave, started the play over and went on.

Was that the proper way to handle it or should a T have been called? If the official says "my mistake" does that negate the T? I thought it was odd.

In general, it is a T. There have been 1-2 cases where I've not called it. One that comes to mind is when, after a substitution, a 6th player thought they should be on the floor and ran off the bench. In this particular game, his team was getting crushed (30-40 point spread) and it was late in the 4th. I merely blew the whistle, got the 6th player off the court, and continued. The opposing coach, who had been a gentleman all evening, merely asked "That'd be a T in a closer game, right?". To which I responded, "Absolutely". By the book, No? The right call? Yes. Noone had any interest in rubbing salt in the wounds of the losing team.

[Mark Padgett]

One time I had a game in which a team came out of a timeout with six men on the floor. That was really weird, mostly because it was a women's game.