Tennessee--Rutgers ending--Women's Game

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Rut...Why would you try and watch the clock? We shouldn't have to do that. We have the LED lights, the horn and in this game the monitor. No reason to look @ the clock again until there is a whistle or the final horn. Who cares what the media says. Center will make the call on the last second shot in relation to the LED lights or horn.

You watch the clock (as well as other things) so you know if there is a malfunction or something else takes place that you can offer information. And looking at the clock is not meaning you only watch the clock. And if you really do not care about what the media thinks, then either you have never been in a game where the media is covering and you have never had a game on TV. This game was a nationally televised game, you better make sure you have some idea if that clock is running or not because when the supervisor gets complaints, they are not going look away from what the media is pointing out. I can tell you the teams will not be looking the other way; neither will the conference or governing body. And if this was just a HS game, I would want to be able to have all the information so that someone cannot say I did not do my job properly.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Trail has to referee the backside of this play in the paint not watch the clock. Like I said before they would've had to know that the clock was running, stopped prematurely, & started again in order to know to look for that on the monitor review.

It is very easy to keep an eye on the clock as the trail when nothing is happening around you. The players are all in the paint making desperate attempts to shoot the ball, there is no back side to be hawking. The Lead was all over this play and the center has another angle. Not much you are going to be doing as the Trail with bodies in front of you.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

The most truly amazing thing about this whole thread?

Jeff Rutledge was watching a Wimmens' game.....and admitted it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is very easy to keep an eye on the clock as the trail when nothing is happening around you. The players are all in the paint making desperate attempts to shoot the ball, there is no back side to be hawking. The Lead was all over this play and the center has another angle. Not much you are going to be doing as the Trail with bodies in front of you.

Peace

After looking at that play I'm thinking that as T I'm going to step down to watch the 10 bodies in the paint. Would it be good to be aware that the clock is still moving once it properly starts? Yes. Is it what I'm going to focus on in this sequence. Not likely. Do I think I would be aware enough to notice it stopped moving for the length of time it did? I like to think so.

Tough sitch all around.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

You might consider rephrasing your statement!! It's not the responsibility of the "C" to watch the CLOCK. It's C's responsibility to count or cancel the basket. You very well can't do that if your watching the clock.

I disagree, it's the C responsibility to ensure things go properly with the clock.

[QUOTE=Gimlet25id] We have the LED lights, the horn and in this game the monitor.
(1). So, because we have these things it releases us from monitoring the clock.

(2). The point I'm trying to make is this. If the C was monitoring the clock and observed that the clock STARTED; STOPPED; STARTED; STOPPED again; then we have a foul he/she have definate knowledge that the game should be over before the foul occurred. Game over!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The most truly amazing thing about this whole thread?

Jeff Rutledge was watching a Wimmens' game.....and admitted it.

I tend to watch games like this because I want to see the top teams in Wimmens' college basketball. Also Candace Parker is basically a home girl and I have been following her career since she was in HS.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

You're seriously suggesting that somebody on the crew should be tasked with watching the clock while it's running at the end of the game to make sure it doesn't stop and start inappropriately?

Is this in the mechanics manual somewhere? Are they teaching this at camps? Or is this one of those kneejerk reactions because "if somebody had been doing 'their job'..."?

[Texas Aggie]

There are so many problems with this play, its hard to know where to begin.

For those of you arguing in ANY way that what happened MIGHT have been correct, PLEASE STOP!! RIGHT NOW. You are making a complete fool out of yourself. Rut is 100% right. Not only could there have not been a foul called at .2, the UT player was just then grabbing the rebound. The clock stopped long before a foul was called.

I agree with the other posters who said there was no foul here. I'm not even sure a Rut player made ANY contact with the shooter, but that's beside the point as all this happened long after the clock should have gone off.

The only explanation here is that the officials did not know that the clock stopped and had no way of knowing even with the replays. What we saw on ESPN was not what they saw on the monitor. There is no way under the sun that they could have ruled the way they did if they saw what we saw. If in fact, they did, they should be fired for gross incompetence.

Finally, from a mechanics standpoint, the C is WAAAYYYY out of position.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by truerookie

And late in the game when the score is close and the possiblity of a foul may occur.

Comprehension!!!! You would have a WHISTLE which if your the off official then you would look @the clock to make sure the clock stopped.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I disagree, it's the C responsibility to ensure things go properly with the clock.

If this is indeed the C's responsibility, I'm guessing there's something in the manual similar to...

1.2.3.4 With time running down, in a close, big, or really big, or really really big, but not necessarily in a small to medium-sized game, the C shall focus his/her attention entirely on the game clock to monitor the possibility that the home timer, an inadventent whistle, or a clock malfunction doesn't cause the clock to stop and restart when you least expect it. Also, while his/her attention is focused entirely on the game clock, he/she shall also focus on the ball leaving the player's hand to determine whether the ball was away before time expired. Also, if the C want's to keep his/her job, he/she shall also focus on making sure he/she doesn't miss something obvious in his/her PCA or secondary areas of coverage that would cause the supervisor's eyebrows to make any upward motion. It is recommended therefore that all college women's officials be outfitted with a third eye.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You're seriously suggesting that somebody on the crew should be tasked with watching the clock while it's running at the end of the game to make sure it doesn't stop and start inappropriately?

I do not know what you mean by being "tasked" with watching the clock. I watch the clock often so I know if it was started properly.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Is this in the mechanics manual somewhere?

I have no idea, nor do I care. I do not officiate only based on what is said in a manual.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Are they teaching this at camps? Or is this one of those kneejerk reactions because "if somebody had been doing 'their job'..."?

Yes it is taught at camps. I will give you a quick story. I was working at a camp a couple of years ago for a D1 Supervisor. I was working with two officials that worked D1 already (I did not know this at the beginning of the game) and we had about 3 or 4 timing mistakes in the game. I caught all of them and my partners had no idea. The evaluator (who is a current D1 Official) on our court went on and on with the two guys about how they would lose their checks and get fired if they let that kind of thing go. Then I was complemented heavily about how I noticed this and my partners clearly dropped the ball in this specific situation.

And as a current college official, when you deal with the shot clock I have made a habit to watch the clock in relationship to the shot clock to make sure it is started and stopped properly. Because when something goes wrong, it is looked highly by those that assign it, that those are mistakes you cannot have.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You watch the clock (as well as other things) so you know if there is a malfunction or something else takes place that you can offer information. And looking at the clock is not meaning you only watch the clock.

You got to be kidding me. The clock was running, had been. Why would you be looking @ the clock? To make sure it keeps running? I understand that if theres a whistle then you need to make sure it stops or if the ball is coming live you need to make sure the clock starts, but the clock had properly started. Why would yo keep looking @ it to make sure it continues to run?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if you really do not care about what the media thinks, then either you have never been in a game where the media is covering and you have never had a game on TV.

I have had several TV games and several games where the media is covering the game and can honestly say I don't care what they think. Heck all you have to do is listen to the color commentators to realize they have no clue on how to call a game or any real comprehension of the rules.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This game was a nationally televised game, you better make sure you have some idea if that clock is running or not because when the supervisor gets complaints, they are not going look away from what the media is pointing out.

The clock was running!!!! My point all along. Once you know its running there is no need to look @ the clock to make sure it continues to run if there wasn't a whistle.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is very easy to keep an eye on the clock as the trail when nothing is happening around you. The players are all in the paint making desperate attempts to shoot the ball, there is no back side to be hawking. The Lead was all over this play and the center has another angle. Not much you are going to be doing as the Trail with bodies in front of you.

So since you don't think you need to referee backside plays or move to get an angle to help referee your just going to watch the clock to make sure it continues to run...Hmmm...never heard of that before. Beside in this play there was plenty of play to referee for trail on the backside that Center couldn't see.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...3 or 4 timing mistakes in the game. I caught all of them and my partners had no idea.

Were any of these mistakes where the clock was running, stopped without a whistle then started again? I doubt it very seriously. I can understand making sure the clock stops on a whistle and starts on the touch, these are the mistakes that we should be catching.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And as a current college official, when you deal with the shot clock I have made a habit to watch the clock in relationship to the shot clock to make sure it is started and stopped properly.

Again we should be checking to make sure it stops on a whistle and starts on a touch &/or possession. Why would you be looking @ the clock while it was running? Other then in shot clock games where we take a look @ the game clock to get the change of possession time. In this play the shot clock was off!!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know what you mean by being "tasked" with watching the clock. I watch the clock often so I know if it was started properly.



I have no idea, nor do I care. I do not officiate only based on what is said in a manual.



Yes it is taught at camps. I will give you a quick story. I was working at a camp a couple of years ago for a D1 Supervisor. I was working with two officials that worked D1 already (I did not know this at the beginning of the game) and we had about 3 or 4 timing mistakes in the game. I caught all of them and my partners had no idea. The evaluator (who is a current D1 Official) on our court went on and on with the two guys about how they would lose their checks and get fired if they let that kind of thing go. Then I was complemented heavily about how I noticed this and my partners clearly dropped the ball in this specific situation.

And as a current college official, when you deal with the shot clock I have made a habit to watch the clock in relationship to the shot clock to make sure it is started and stopped properly. Because when something goes wrong, it is looked highly by those that assign it, that those are mistakes you cannot have.

Peace

That I can totally buy. And I'm becoming more and more aware all the time of the clock starting/stopping properly in my games. Or more importantly when it doesn't start/stop properly. I agree we need to notice these things and fix them when they're wrong.

However, it sounded like you were suggesting, and it certainly sounds like some others are suggesting, that the clock stopping and restarting during play, with no whistle or other indication of trouble, no matter how briefly, should also absolutely be noticed by the crew.

The only way to do that, is for somebody to be continuously watching the clock. (I will admit to watching it much more often during really boring games, and have sometimes wondered if the clock is running too slowly, but never have I watched it continuously throughout the game.)

IMHO about the only reasonable indication of clock trouble in a situation like the one in the OP would be if the C were counting down, and it took longer than expected to get to the horn. And in that case the C may perhaps glance at the clock to ensure it's still running, but only if he/she believed he/she could safely take his/her eyes off the ball. Which of us, in reality, would ever seriously suspect that we were actually right and the clock, with it's tenth-of-a-second accuracy, was wrong.

[SonikBoom]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

However, it sounded like you were suggesting, and it certainly sounds like some others are suggesting, that the clock stopping and restarting during play, with no whistle or other indication of trouble, no matter how briefly, should also absolutely be noticed by the crew.

The only way to do that, is for somebody to be continuously watching the clock. (I will admit to watching it much more often during really boring games, and have sometimes wondered if the clock is running too slowly, but never have I watched it continuously throughout the game.)

It's obvious that we can't see every tenth of a second as the clock runs, and we certainly can't be watching constantly. But in the OP, they certainly could have watched constantly during one of the replay tapes and seen the prboelm at that point!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

You got to be kidding me. The clock was running, had been. Why would you be looking @ the clock? To make sure it keeps running? I understand that if theres a whistle then you need to make sure it stops or if the ball is coming live you need to make sure the clock starts, but the clock had properly started. Why would yo keep looking @ it to make sure it continues to run?

The game is down to seconds, I better have some idea what happens with that clock if we call a foul or if some other reason we have a malfunction. And that information can be discussed before we go to the monitor.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I have had several TV games and several games where the media is covering the game and can honestly say I don't care what they think. Heck all you have to do is listen to the color commentators to realize they have no clue on how to call a game or any real comprehension of the rules.

I think you missed the point. The evidence is going to likely come from the media. I do not care what a commentator says, but the video and the different angles will be used to prove that you got it right or that you got it wrong. And even what is said in the media, might be used to take action or to make statements to agree with your call or to say you made a mistake. And this game will likely have some statement from someone about the clock or the officials. It has in other cases similar to this. Remember the Oklahoma-Oregon Football game in 2006. A replay official resigned and the crew was suspended and it was partly because of the media frenzy. And the participants used the media to plead their case.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

The clock was running!!!! My point all along. Once you know its running there is no need to look @ the clock to make sure it continues to run if there wasn't a whistle.

OK.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

So since you don't think you need to referee backside plays or move to get an angle to help referee your just going to watch the clock to make sure it continues to run...Hmmm...never heard of that before. Beside in this play there was plenty of play to referee for trail on the backside that Center couldn't see.

I think you need to read what I said. I never said it was one verse the other. You better learn to multi-task as an official or you might find yourself in similar situations. I said that I would be paying attention to the clock. And based on the play, the issue was not backside coverage to be worried about. There was nothing to watch, but the clock in this case for the trail official. Two other officials clearly had a better look at the play for contact purposes. And one of the officials had to rule on the last second shot as well. I guess the center only should worry about contact and not know if the shot got off in time. At least that is if I use your logic.

Peace