Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The book doesn't discuss this situation

Alright, I finally got out of my comfortable chair and got my rule book out of my bag. Here's what I found:

4-5-1: A team's own basket is the one into which its players try to throw or tap the ball.

4-5-2: Each team's basket for practice before the game and for the first half shall be the one farther from its team bench.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limnited to, substitutes, coaches, managers, and statisticians. During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

So, only those individuals who are eligible to become a player are team members, and only team members are allowed to warm up, thus, if a varsity individual is not eligible to become a player, because the coach doesn't want him to play in the junior varsity game, and/or his, or her name, is not in the junior varsity book, then the official has the right, by rule, to exclude those varsity individuals from warmups.

How does that sound?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, with a team T, don't you have to give the seatbelt?

Hhmmm, I'll take that up with my commish. I've been told differently.

I can't believe that your commish told you that. There is NEVER a seatbelt with a team "T".

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't. Just get game management to get them off the court.

There...now I disagree with everybody.

I knew it was coming... My point was that if a VP does this then it would be nice to be able by rule to penalize it. I just don't think by rule you can and that game management would have to deal with the situation.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can't believe that your commish told you that. There is NEVER a seatbelt with a team "T".

Okay, I didn't put that stuff in to the post correctly.

Commish didn't tell me there is always a seatbelt with a team T. You KNOW he would never say anything that incorrect.

What Commish told me was that I'd handled the var dunking in a JV warm-up correctly. I see what you mean about the team T. I was thinking a bench T. always a seatbelt with a bench T. so I guess he was figuring to treat them as bench personnel, since he didn't have a problem with the seatbelt.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by truerookie

yep, it was discussed about a year or two ago.

What dunks?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:
There is no logic and you just made a statement that you thought would CYA so that you wouldn't have to earn the big bucks you are being paid to officiate the game.

MTD, Sr.

Whatever this means.......

[ace]

Lets all use a little logic and common sense on this one. Think about the broader picture and game management.

if the varsity squad is gunna warm-up with the JV squad who cares? I wouldn't even go talk to the coach. Let them warm up with them. IF a varsity player dunks go head with the T, and I'll bet all the money in my pockets ($2.34 + a $50.00 gift card if the winner is Brad ;-) ) that the coach pulls the V squad off. You can't directly penalize the Varsity player, all you can do is issue the T to the team and start the game that way. I've read way to many 'what ifs' here.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by ace

Lets all use a little logic and common sense on this one. Think about the broader picture and game management.

if the varsity squad is gunna warm-up with the JV squad who cares? I wouldn't even go talk to the coach. Let them warm up with them. IF a varsity player dunks go head with the T, and I'll bet all the money in my pockets ($2.34 + a $50.00 gift card if the winner is Brad ;-) ) that the coach pulls the V squad off. You can't directly penalize the Varsity player, all you can do is issue the T to the team and start the game that way. I've read way to many 'what ifs' here.

How do you give a Team technical? Supporters/followers?

[ace]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

How do you give a Team technical? Supporters/followers?

Indirect on the coach "responsible for personel blah blah blah" only counts as a team foul.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by ace

Indirect on the coach "responsible for personel blah blah blah" only counts as a team foul.

Nice! Seriously there really isn't a way to penalize the coach for a non team member infraction. I suppose I could see the TEAM T for actions of the followers/supporters although not recommended.

[Gimlet25id]

This hypothetical situation is why nobody but the team members of that game should be warming up!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The best way to look at this is to divide the play into two different situations: Play 1: A dunk by a VAR player before the ten-minute mark; and Play 2: A dunk by a VAR player after the ten-minute mark.


Play 1: This is the easy play. The officails count players. Team A has 15 players in uniform on the court warming up. Who cares if they are JV or VAR players, the officials don't care because they don't need to care until the ten-minute mark. Direct TF charged to the VAR player, indirect charged to the JV-HC, and one foul charged to the team's totals for seven and ten in the first half, and yes the JV-C loses the Coaching Box if in a State that uses it. If JV-HC complains that the dunker is a VAR player, too bad, he was out there in uniform warming up. It is not the officials' job to take a census of the players when they take jurisdicion of the game at the fifteen minute mark. Whether the VAR player's name is added to the Scorebook is another matter but is not really germaine to the Play.


Play 2: This situation is a bit of a sticky wicket. Let me give an example. The R checks the Scorebook and discovers that Team A has twelve players warming up but only eleven players in the book. The R goes to A-HC and informs him of the discrepency. A-HC tells you that he doesn't intend to play A-12 unless he really needs to and is willing to let Team A be charged with an administrative TF if he later wants to add A-12's name to the book. Can the official tell A-HC that A-12 can't warm-up? The answer is no. This is a decision that A-HC can only make (not even game managemnet Gimlet). Now lets see how that applys to our play. A-12 now decides that he wants to dunk and dead ball and does so. What is the R to do? RULING: Direct TF to A-12 (counts toward his two TF's and combination of five PER and TF's), ndirect charged to the JV-HC, and one foul charged to the team's totals for seven and ten in the first half, and yes the JV-C loses the Coaching Box if in a State that uses it. And in my humble opinion A-12's name has to be added to the Scorebook, and an Administrative TF charged to Team A, meaning that Team A has two fouls toward it first half total of seven and ten team fouls.

Is this situation analogous to the VAR players warming up with the JV players before the JV game? I think so. The R discovers only ten names in the score book at the ten-minute mark when there are fifteen players in uniform warming up. The R notifies the JV-HC who informs the R that they VAR players warming up with the JV players. Should the R care? No. Who knows, maybe some of the five VAR players might be added to the JV Scorebook later because they are going to need the bodies to finish the JV game. If VAR-11 then decides to dunk a dead ball. Treat this play the same way as you would if it were A-12 in my example.


The big quesion for both Play 1 and Play 2 is whether to add the player's name to the JV Scorebook and access the penalty for changing the roster if the name is added after the ten-minute mark. I would because you are charging a player (bench personel) with a TF, but I could live with a ruling that says the player's name is not added to the Jv-Scorebook.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The best way to look at this is to divide the play into two different situations: Play 1: A dunk by a VAR player before the ten-minute mark; and Play 2: A dunk by a VAR player after the ten-minute mark.


Play 1: This is the easy play. The officails count players. Team A has 15 players in uniform on the court warming up. Who cares if they are JV or VAR players, the officials don't care because they don't need to care until the ten-minute mark. Direct TF charged to the VAR player, indirect charged to the JV-HC, and one foul charged to the team's totals for seven and ten in the first half, and yes the JV-C loses the Coaching Box if in a State that uses it. If JV-HC complains that the dunker is a VAR player, too bad, he was out there in uniform warming up. It is not the officials' job to take a census of the players when they take jurisdicion of the game at the fifteen minute mark. Whether the VAR player's name is added to the Scorebook is another matter but is not really germaine to the Play.


Play 2: This situation is a bit of a sticky wicket. Let me give an example. The R checks the Scorebook and discovers that Team A has twelve players warming up but only eleven players in the book. The R goes to A-HC and informs him of the discrepency. A-HC tells you that he doesn't intend to play A-12 unless he really needs to and is willing to let Team A be charged with an administrative TF if he later wants to add A-12's name to the book. Can the official tell A-HC that A-12 can't warm-up? The answer is no. This is a decision that A-HC can only make (not even game managemnet Gimlet). Now lets see how that applys to our play. A-12 now decides that he wants to dunk and dead ball and does so. What is the R to do? RULING: Direct TF to A-12 (counts toward his two TF's and combination of five PER and TF's), ndirect charged to the JV-HC, and one foul charged to the team's totals for seven and ten in the first half, and yes the JV-C loses the Coaching Box if in a State that uses it. And in my humble opinion A-12's name has to be added to the Scorebook, and an Administrative TF charged to Team A, meaning that Team A has two fouls toward it first half total of seven and ten team fouls.

Is this situation analogous to the VAR players warming up with the JV players before the JV game? I think so. The R discovers only ten names in the score book at the ten-minute mark when there are fifteen players in uniform warming up. The R notifies the JV-HC who informs the R that they VAR players warming up with the JV players. Should the R care? No. Who knows, maybe some of the five VAR players might be added to the JV Scorebook later because they are going to need the bodies to finish the JV game. If VAR-11 then decides to dunk a dead ball. Treat this play the same way as you would if it were A-12 in my example.


The big quesion for both Play 1 and Play 2 is whether to add the player's name to the JV Scorebook and access the penalty for changing the roster if the name is added after the ten-minute mark. I would because you are charging a player (bench personel) with a TF, but I could live with a ruling that says the player's name is not added to the Jv-Scorebook.

MTD, Sr.

Yup, Mark, you convinced me. I'm with JR. No way I could ever pull off the kind of think you're talking about.

[Snake~eyes]

The past situation and this situation are different IIRC. The past situation had varsity members dunk the ball (no T), this situation (atleast my impression) is that the coach WANTED them to warm up with the team. Therefore, they are team members. If the coach wants them to warm up with his team, then they are HIS responsbility. No different then if a player dunks it, why complicate this issue?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ace

Indirect on the coach "responsible for personel blah blah blah" only counts as a team foul.

A coach is only responsible for his team. Rule 10-4. That means he's responsible for his players and bench personnel as listed in rule 4-34.

If you're going to "blah, blah, blah.." and give an indirect "T" to a coach, you better have rules justification to do so. You don't in this situation.

If you're going to do something that going to end up in a game report, you'd better have some rules backing for your action.