Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

4-34-2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to, substitutes, coaches, managers, and statisticians. During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

That's enough rule for me.

If the coach tells you that they ain't affiliated with his team but are members of the varsity team, is that still enough rule for you? Especially when they supply team lists that show that along with the complaint that they're gonna put in against you?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the coach tells me that the players dunking aren't his team members, I have no reason not to believe him.

The reason you might not believe him is because he's trying to avoid one or more technical fouls. This is the same guy that will soon be saying "HE DIDN'T EVEN TOUCH HIM!"

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the coach tells you that they ain't affiliated with his team but are members of the varsity team, is that still enough rule for you? Especially when they supply team lists that show that along with the complaint that they're gonna put in against you?

You are misunderstanding what angle I am coming from.

If the coach says that, THEN I will tell him the VAR team cannot warm up with the JV in the first place.

I will go to the coach immediately and tell him that if he wants the VAR to warm up with his team, then he is responsible for their actions and they will be conisdered "affiliated." Otherwise, as I have already stated, they cannot warm up with the team.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

You are misunderstanding what angle I am coming from.

If the coach says that, THEN I will tell him the VAR team cannot warm up with the JV in the first place.

I will go to the coach immediately and tell him that if he wants the VAR to warm up with his team, then he is responsible for their actions and they will be conisdered "affiliated." Otherwise, as I have already stated, they cannot warm up with the team.

Yes, I was misunderstanding.

I'd still handle it slightly differently though. They ain't warming up- no matter what- if they ain't part of the JV team. I'd just have 'em all removed from the court.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

I know you are that well versed on the rules so let me guide you through the play.

I'm thinking that maybe your explanation of the rules wouldn't be relevant here since you have yet to cite any applicable rules that support your explanation! Other then, "those are the rules."

Originally Posted by MTD

You enter the court for the JV game 15 minutes before game time. You count 15 players in uniform for Team A and they are all warming-up. You do NOT go to each and ever player and ask them if they are a JV or a VAR player. That is NOT your job.

Of course were not going to do this. Again comprehension is the key in debating a topic. In the OP the "R" found out they were Varsity players when the # of players on the floor didn't match up to the book!

Originally Posted by MTD

The fact that they are in uniform and warming up implies that they are going to play in the JV game.

Rarely does the JV uniforms match exactly to the Varsity Uniforms. In fact the warm-ups are usually different. So I'm sure this would be a dead give away.

Originally Posted by MTD

It is only after one of the Team A players, that are warming up, dunks the ball do you discover that the player that dunked the ball and 4 other players are not JV players but are VAR players.

If this were to happen & the JV coach states that the player is a Varsity player I wouldn't have any rule substantiation to penalize the act of a non team member. I would have GAME MANAGEMENT or the VHC clear those players and any non team members off of the floor. If the player that dunked doesn't sit on the bench and isn't in the book then he is by RULE defined as a non team member.

Originally Posted by MTD

Charge the VAR player with a direct TF, the JV Head Coach with and indirect TF and tell the JV Head Coach to get the VAR players off the court.

How in the world are you going to charge a "T" to a person who isn't a member of the team. If you did then does that "T" carry over into the Varsity contest? Does it count toward DQ? I know, your going to add him to the book and assess a ADMIN "T". Please enlighten us and give specific rule reference to this. Not just, "those are the rules."

Originally Posted by MTD

And as far as the student coming out of the stands scenario, to say that any official, except, should I dare utter the name Old School, would whack the student is absurd and tells me that the official does not know the rules.

According to these so called rules that you are invoking. If you can assess a DTF to a non member of the JV team then Surely by your rule book you can assess a DTF to the fan, add the fan to the book, and assess a ADMIN "T" to the JVHC for the roster change after the 10 minute mark.

I mean its the same thing. The rule book is clear on what is a team member. If their not a team member then what are they defined as? You made it clear on what you think should happen however if your so sure your right then the rules should back you up.

Show me in the rule book where the Varsity players would be considered team members of the JV team. If you can do that then I can go along with you on the DTF's, IDTF, etc....

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Rarely does the JV uniforms match exactly to the Varsity Uniforms. In fact the warm-ups are usually different. So I'm sure this would be a dead give away.

Gimlet:

ROFLMAO!! I am sorry but it is obvious that you have only been officiating for a short period of time. It is extremely rare to find everybody on the JV team wearing the exact same style uniform, especially for small schools. It is called money. Furthermore, in state like Ohio which has a five quarter per day rule, it is quite possible to have players playing FR, JV, and VAR games on the same day and as long as the jersey color is the same, and there is no duplication of numbers, the player could possible where the same uniform for all three games. Different styles of uniforms do not tell me a thing. It only tells me that some of the players will be dressing for the VAR game too.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

ROFLMAO!! I am sorry but it is obvious that you have only been officiating for a short period of time. It is extremely rare to find everybody on the JV team wearing the exact same style uniform, especially for small schools. It is called money. Furthermore, in state like Ohio which has a five quarter per day rule, it is quite possible to have players playing FR, JV, and VAR games on the same day and as long as the jersey color is the same, and there is no duplication of numbers, the player could possible where the same uniform for all three games. Different styles of uniforms do not tell me a thing. It only tells me that some of the players will be dressing for the VAR game too.

MTD, Sr.

I bet you have never lost a argument a day in your life. My point is that if they are DIFFERENT then there is a GOOD CHANCE that you might have a problem especially if the #'s don't match up.

Fortunately were not talking about the legality of uniforms but rather if they are team members or not. Stay on point!

[Daryl H. Long]

I have tried for 2 hours to respond but everytime I submitted my reply the forum logged me out. I will find out why later.

There are 2 questions under consideration in this thread.
1. Can Varsity Player warm-up with the JV team? (BillieMac)
2. How do we handle a situation in which the Var player dunks. (Gimlet25id)

The answer to both hinges on who we include as fitting the definition of "Bench Personnel' per 4-34-2.

As for responses I will reply first by mentioning the one who brought my name into the fray. The preacher agrees with MTD in part but not the whole. Just because I agreed with the decision to assess the T does not mean I agree with all the analagies you presented nor the logic behind what kind of T it is. (it is not a player technical nor a team technical as Rainmaker said). Nor are we authorized by rule to make a coach submit a name to his roster like you suggested. Also the time on the pregame clock is of no consequence initially.

The Preacher agrees with JR in part but not the whole. We differ only on the definition of bench personnel as I mentioned above. I believe the Varsity players warming up with JV to be bench personnel and JR says no. If JR is right then he has posted the correct solution of how to handle the matter. Get game management to remove everyone not associated with the team. Now the responsibility for safety of the team is in the hands the proper authorities as deemed by rule (See Officials Manual, pg 6, 1.0.7) And just so we are very clear, just because I disagree with JR on who to include in the open defintion of bench personnel I in no way will impugn his logic in reaching his conclusion. Based on his definition he is consistent within the rules of how to solve the situation. (My reasons to include are below)

Is there a need for the rules committee to clarify who may be on the court for pregame warmups? Yes. Just the different opinions by esteemed members of this forum's "rules committee" in this thread back my affirmation. As some have mentioned I could use the elastic clause of Rule 2-2-3 to make a decision but then as JR said it could come back to haunt me later. So to prohibit that I must consider all the rules I know exist for sure before doing so.

Most of the rules cover what to do during the game. Very few address the pregame.

Rule 2-2-2; Officials Jurisdiction begin.
Rule 2-2-4; Referee's pregame duties.
Rule 3-2; Submission of roster, starters, etc 10 min prior.
Rule 4-5-2; Designates pregame warmup basket for each teat
Rule Rule 6-2-2, 6-3; Give requirements for player location on court prior to jump ball to start the game.
Rule 10-1-1,2; Penalty for violating Rule 3-2
Rule 10-3-4; Pregame dunk and penalty
Rule 10-4; Bench technical fouls.

Other rules to consider:
Rule 2-2-1: Officials shall make decisions for infractions of the rules..
Rule 4-34-4; Definition of team member.
Rule 10-4; Head coach responsible for conduct and behavior of bench personnel.

That said let me give my take of the situation.

Rule 4-5-2 only authorizes individuals of a team to be on the court to practice at its team basket prior to the game. Once I take jurisdiction anyone I see practicing there I consider them to be team members (especially anyone wearing official team uniforms and no they do not all have to be identical, only same color and legal). They are bench personnel. I have authority to define them as bench personnel as the definition given in 4-34-2 says the list specifically mentioned is not all inclusive.

If I should observe anyone warming up at the teams basket violate a rule (in this case a pregame dunk) the as an official I am bound by Rule 2-2-1 to invoke the appropriate penalty (Rule 4-32) I will go to the Head Coach and notify him of the person who dunked and that by rule (10-3-4 penalty) he is also assessed an indirect T and also now must remain seated during the game (10-5 Penalty, Note)

So far the time on the pregame clock is of no consequence. Once it reaches 10:00 I will check the book and if the dunkers' name is there he will receive a direct T which counts for one of 5 leading to disqualification. If his name is not listed I will have the scorer note the dunker was bench personnel, note his name and the time of the pre-game infraction.

Bottom line is I will not allow an infraction of this magnitude to go unpunished. As said before if the rules committee ties our hands so the act cannot be punished then this can only lead to chaos. The Varisty teams will all come out and put on a dunk show until game management is rounded up to remove them from the court. Ignoring these actions compromises the safety of everyone.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I have tried for 2 hours to respond but everytime I submitted my reply the forum logged me out. I will find out why later.

Too many words. That's why.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Too many words. That's why.

Nothing I can say but AMEN.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Too many words. That's why.

You know where he caught that particular virus. Too many road trips with the Ohio Orator.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Rule 4-5-2 only authorizes individuals of a team to be on the court to practice at its team basket prior to the game. Once I take jurisdiction anyone I see practicing there I consider them to be team members (especially anyone wearing official team uniforms and no they do not all have to be identical, only same color and legal). They are bench personnel. I have authority to define them as bench personnel as the definition given in 4-34-2 says the list specifically mentioned is not all inclusive.

Disagree. You have no rules backing as an official to decide who or who not is affiliated with a team. That decision is not within our domain. It lies with the team, not us. The team provides the team list. Pre-game, we have to ask the head coach. Once the game starts, if they're on the bench we can presume that they're affiliated with the team and then proceed accordingly.

[Ignats75]

First, on the dunking rule. The definition of team personnel includes the listing of "civilians" like Assistant Coaches and trainers. But the definition also uses the words "is NOT limited to". That tells me that Varsity Players Warming up can be considered bench personnel without being in the book. To follow that logic, it would seem to me that a player dunking in pregame, whether in the book or not, IS considered team personnel. Therefore it would result in a direct T on the player as bench personnel, but no need to add him to the roaster, as I had no need to add the trainer to the roster when I assessed him a T last week. (That was a first) It would also mean an indirect T on the HC as the rules mandate. In Ohio, that also means the HC now has the seatbelt for the game as he has lost the privilege to use the coaching box.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Last year, when this scenario came up, I asked how to handle it at our last Association meeting of the year when we discuss unusual situations that have cropped up. I was surprised when the commissioner of one of the conferences I officiate said it was NO T. Just remove the offending player from the court. So much for following the logic that I thought was pretty clear.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

First, on the dunking rule. The definition of team personnel includes the listing of "civilians" like Assistant Coaches and trainers. But the definition also uses the words "is NOT limited to". That tells me that Varsity Players Warming up can be considered bench personnel without being in the book. To follow that logic, it would seem to me that a player dunking in pregame, whether in the book or not, IS considered team personnel.

Yup, and similarly using your logic, someone that jumps out of the stands and dunks the ball can also be considered bench personnel without being in the book. And someone that fell off a turnip truck outside the gym doors, saw the bright lights and decided to come in and get warm, and then said "hey, I can do that." and dunks the ball is also now bench personnel without being in the book, using the same logic.

Good logic.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and similarly using your logic, someone that jumps out of the stands and dunks the ball can also be considered bench personnel without being in the book. And someone that fell off a turnip truck outside the gym doors, saw the bright lights and decided to come in and get warm, and then said "hey, I can do that." and dunks the ball is also now bench personnel without being in the book, using the same logic.

Good logic.

All you have to add to Ignats' logic to make it clear is individuals participating in warmups "with the coach's permission." Obviously if someone comes out of the stands, grabs a ball, and dunks, you aren't going to issue a T.

I'm with all that would view them as bench personnel. If they are out there warming up, and the coach hasn't seen fit to remove them or ask them to be removed, they are bench personnel.