Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

The past situation and this situation are different IIRC. The past situation had varsity members dunk the ball (no T), this situation (atleast my impression) is that the coach WANTED them to warm up with the team. Therefore, they are team members. If the coach wants them to warm up with his team, then they are HIS responsbility. No different then if a player dunks it, why complicate this issue?

Cool. Now find something....anything....in the rules somewhere that will back up those statements. I can't.

Personally I ain't big on making up my own rules. That has a tendency to come back and bite you on the butt.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Yup, Mark, you convinced me. I'm with JR. No way I could ever pull off the kind of think you're talking about.

Juulie:

What is there to pull off. It is not the officials job to take a census of the players warming up on the court as to which ones are JV players and which ones are VAR players. The game officials are to count players period. If one if them decides to dunk the ball he does at his own risk and puts his team at risk.

In Play 1, nobody wants to consider this TF because it was done by a VAR player before the ten-minute mark. Lets tweak Play 1 a bit. Change VAR to A-12. The R goes to the Table to find report the TF and A-HC tells you that A-12's name is't going to be in the Scorebook tongiht because he is not going to play because he has a strained saluting finger in his shooting hand. By your logic you do not have a TF because A-12 is not a player just like the VAR player is not a player. BUT then, when the R checks the Scorebook at the ten-minute, guess what? A-HC has decided to put A-12's name in the Scorebook after all just in case he needed an extra body to finish out the game. Are you going to go back and tell A-HC that you are know going to charge A-12 with a TF for dunking after telling A-HC that you weren't.

The best way to handle this is to remember it is not the officials job to take a census of the players. If they are in uniform and on the court warming up they are to be assumed to be players. If the players and the coaches want to be idiots, so be it, it is not the officials job to protect them from their own stupidity.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Hmmm...I'll give this a crack!

Originally Posted by MTD

Direct TF charged to the VAR player, indirect charged to the JV-HC, and one foul charged to the team's totals for seven and ten in the first half, and yes the JV-C loses the Coaching Box if in a State that uses it.

Impossible by rule since the Varsity player isn't a TEAM MEMBER of the JV team nor is he bench personnel...I'll elaborate on later!

Originally Posted by MTD

Whether the VAR player's name is added to the Score book is another matter but is not really germane to the Play.

It is germane. If the VP isn't bench personnel and he/she isn't in the book then the VP isn't a TEAM MEMBER!!!!! You just can't decide as the official who your going to add to the book. This is only up to the COACH for crying out loud! In your example the player can warm up because he is a TEAM MEMBER who is going to be bench personnel.

Originally Posted by MTD

The R goes to A-HC and informs him of the discrepancy. A-HC tells you that he doesn't intend to play A-12 unless he really needs to and is willing to let Team A be charged with an administrative TF if he later wants to add A-12's name to the book. Can the official tell A-HC that A-12 can't warm-up? The answer is no. This is a decision that A-HC can only make (not even game management Gimlet). Now lets see how that applys to our play. A-12 now decides that he wants to dunk and dead ball and does so. What is the R to do?

Duh!!! The difference here MTD is that the player is BENCH PERSONNEL & still a TEAM MEMBER!!! He doesn't have to be in the book to be bench personnel. If the player dunks, WHACK, Bench T on the player directly and indirectly on the coach and he sits. EASY! Game management wouldn't have anything to do with your example because that player would be bench personnel.

It doesn't apply to our play since the VP isn't a TEAM MEMBER or BENCH PERSONNEL.

Originally Posted by MTD

RULING: Direct TF to A-12 (counts toward his two TF's and combination of five PER and TF's), ndirect charged to the JV-HC, and one foul charged to the team's totals for seven and ten in the first half, and yes the JV-C loses the Coaching Box if in a State that uses it.

Finally I agree because in your play he is.......Guess......BENCH personnel.

Originally Posted by MTD

And in my humble opinion A-12's name has to be added to the Score book, and an Administrative TF charged to Team A, meaning that Team A has two fouls toward it first half total of seven and ten team fouls.

Why does his name have to be added if he is bench personnel? Are you serious? So if a player on the bench who the coach was never going to play and was never in the book but is sitting on the bench gets a "T" your going to add his/her name to the book and also pop the team with a ADMIN "T"!!! NOW THATS ABSURD!!!

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

The past situation and this situation are different IIRC. The past situation had varsity members dunk the ball (no T), this situation (atleast my impression) is that the coach WANTED them to warm up with the team. Therefore, they are team members. If the coach wants them to warm up with his team, then they are HIS responsbility. No different then if a player dunks it, why complicate this issue?

In the OP the JVC just said they always warm up. After the R makes the varsity squad leave the VHC said that they always warm up together.

He just made a statement and his statement doesn't make them team members. They shouldn't be on the floor during warm ups unless they are a member of the team.

If you don't let non team members on the floor then this hypothetical situation wouldn't happen

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Lets tweak Play 1 a bit. Change VAR to A-12. The R goes to the Table to find report the TF and A-HC tells you that A-12's name is't going to be in the Scorebook tongiht because he is not going to play because he has a strained saluting finger in his shooting hand. By your logic you do not have a TF because A-12 is not a player just like the VAR player is not a player. BUT then, when the R checks the Scorebook at the ten-minute, guess what? A-HC has decided to put A-12's name in the Scorebook after all just in case he needed an extra body to finish out the game. Are you going to go back and tell A-HC that you are know going to charge A-12 with a TF for dunking after telling A-HC that you weren't.

A12 is bench personnel if he's gonna sit on the bench. Sez so right in rule 4-34-2. That means that the head coach is responsible for him, as per rule 10-4. If A12 sits on the bench, then A12 gets a "T" and his head coach gets an indirect "T". It ain't rocket science.

Iow, this situation is covered under the rules also. Varsity player who don't sit on the bench are not bench personnel; they are not directly affiliated with with the JV team. That's why they aren't covered under the same rules as A12. The only rule that you could possibly apply to varsity players or anyone other than the JV team that I'm aware of is rule 2-8, and to apply that you'd have to call the varsity player a "follower" or "spectator".

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cool. Now find something....anything....in the rules somewhere that will back up those statements. I can't.

Personally I ain't big on making up my own rules. That has a tendency to come back and bite you on the butt.

JR:

You are wrong on this one. If I walk on the court and see 15 players in uniform warming up and one of them dunks, he is getting a direct TF and the HC is getting an indirect TF. If the player is in uniform and warming up it is expected that he is a player for that game. Too bad if the HC tells you that the player is a VAR player warming up with the JV team. The VAR player is dumb and the HC is dumber. By your logic, Team A could have all of their VAR players warm-up with the JV players and put on a dunking show without being punished. The rule book states that is at TF to dunk a dead ball and the ball is dead during the pre-game warm-up period and if the players are in uniform and warming up it is because they are warming up to play in that game.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. The Preacher on my side on this play.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by MTD

By your logic, Team A could have all of their VAR players warm-up with the JV players and put on a dunking show without being punished.

Exactly why the varsity can't warm up with the JV squad. If you come out on the floor and let the Varsity warm up with the JV then your asking for a problem to arise.

If you were careless enough to let the Varsity squad warm up with the JV and the Varsity squad puts on a dunking exhibition then that is on you. By rule you have no way to penalize non team members unless you invoke followers/supporters.

None of the examples you listed are anything like what was suggested hypothetically. Post an applicable rule reference that would allow you to do what you said you would do. Whack the non team member, put them in the book, give a ADMIN "T", & sit the coach.

So in other words if a student comes out of the stands and picks up the ball and dunks it then he's getting WHACKED, counts toward his DQ, your adding him to the book, and giving a ADMIN "T".

I suppose that would be one way to make the team!!!

[BktBallRef]

I have no idea what all this "discussion" is about.

When the officials take THE FLOOR, their jurisdiction begins.

Warm-ups occur on THE FLOOR. Game management is not needed.

"Coach, I need your team on the floor for warm-ups and no one else."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Exactly why the varsity can't warm up with the JV squad. If you come out on the floor and let the Varsity warm up with the JV then your asking for a problem to arise.

If you were careless enough to let the Varsity squad warm up with the JV and the Varsity squad puts on a dunking exhibition then that is on you. By rule you have no way to penalize non team members unless you invoke followers/supporters.

None of the examples you listed are anything like what was suggested hypothetically. Post an applicable rule reference that would allow you to do what you said you would do. Whack the non team member, put them in the book, give a ADMIN "T", & sit the coach.

So in other words if a student comes out of the stands and picks up the ball and dunks it then he's getting WHACKED, counts toward his DQ, your adding him to the book, and giving a ADMIN "T".

I suppose that would be one way to make the team!!!

Gimlet:

I know you are that well versed on the rules so let me guide you through the play. You enter the court for the JV game 15 miuntes before game time. You count 15 players in uniform for Team A and they are all warming-up. You do NOT go to each and ever player and ask them if they are a JV or a VAR player. That is NOT your job. The fact that they are in uniform and warming up implies that they are going to play in the JV game. It is only after one of the Team A players, that are warming up, dunks the ball do you discover that the player that dunked the ball and 4 other players are not JV players but are VAR players. Too bad. Charge the VAR player with a direct TF, the JV Head Coach with and indirect TF and tell the JV Head Coach to get the VAR players off the court. Those are the rules.

And as far as the student coming out of the stands scenario, to say that any official, except, should I dare utter the name Old School, would whack the student is absurd and tells me that the official does not know the rules.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Please do not tell me that when you enter the court for a JV game you go to each and every player and ask them if they are a JV or a VAR player. I hope you don't because if you don't then you have to whack the player when he dunks. Too bad if he is a VAR player. Now you can order the VAR players off the court. When you enter the court for a JV game, how do you know who the JV players and who the VAR players are with out asking them?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cool. Now find something....anything....in the rules somewhere that will back up those statements. I can't.

Personally I ain't big on making up my own rules. That has a tendency to come back and bite you on the butt.

4-34-2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to, substitutes, coaches, managers, and statisticians. During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

That's enough rule for me.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

"Coach, I need your team on the floor for warm-ups and no one else."

I would have no problem with this, but if he protests because he wants the VAR players to warm up too, then I would allow him as long as he understands he is responsible if they dunk, commit USC, etc...

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

A team is defined in rule 4-34. The people that you want to nail aren't part of the team. The head coach is responsible for bench personnel(10-4) also so you can't nail him. Anybody else is a "spectator" and home management is responsible for them. Rule 2-8-1NOTE. You can penalize a team's followers, but it generally isn't recommended.

Just go to home management and get them to remove everybody not connected to the team from the court.

There's old threads around on this one iirc.

I'm not gonna read the rest of the thread because this is the answer.

And how do you know there are spectators warming up on the floor? When you go to the table at 12 minutes before the game and see there are only 10 players in the book but 25 players warming up.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

4-34-2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to, substitutes, coaches, managers, and statisticians. During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

That's enough rule for me.


I would have no problem with this, but if he protests because he wants the VAR players to warm up too, then I would allow him as long as he understands he is responsible if they dunk, commit USC, etc...

I agree....anyone the coach allows on the floor during warmups ARE team personnel. Call them assistant coaches, managers, whatever. But if they violation a rule on the floor, the team gets penalized.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
"Coach, I need your team on the floor for warm-ups and no one else."

I would have no problem with this, but if he protests because he wants the VAR players to warm up too, then I would allow him as long as he understands he is responsible if they dunk, commit USC, etc...

You are setting yourself up for a long night if you do this. [Not you, Tony.]

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ace

If the varsity squad is gunna warm-up with the JV squad who cares?

And what happens if one of those varsity players get severly injured while warming up before the junior varsity game, and it can be proven to be against the rules, and there are 25 individuals warming up, with only 12 in the book. Anyone can sue anybody for almost any reason. Does your association liability insurance cover negligence? Even if you have good insurance, you're still going to have to spend time with lawyers, and make court appearences.

I say, cite a rule, at the least 2-3, and tell them to get off the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

By your logic, Team A could have all of their VAR players warm-up with the JV players and put on a dunking show without being punished. The rule book states that is at TF to dunk a dead ball and the ball is dead during the pre-game warm-up period and if the players are in uniform and warming up it is because they are warming up to play in that game.

Um no, that's not what I'm telling you. I saying that I'm going to find out whether the person dunking the ball was a team member or not. If they are, they will get an immediate "T" and the head coach will get an indirect "T". If they aren't, I will immediately get game management to get that player off the court as well as any other non-members of that team that might be on the court. I don't have any rules backing to issue a technical foul to that person if they aren't a team member, let alone issue an accompanying indirect "T" to the coach. A team technical foul under rule 2-8 maybe could be assessed, but I doubt very much if I'd even consider that.

If the coach tells me that the players dunking aren't his team members, I have no reason not to believe him. Soooooo......I'll just handle the situation according to the rules. What I won't do is try to make up my own own rules or read something into a situation that I can't 113% prove.

I'm not surprised that you got this wrong, but I gotta tell you that I am kinda amazed that Darrell agrees with you. He's usually much smarter than that.