Blowout becomes a mess

[CJRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I see that you said the act was accidental, but it is still a foul and there was a POE a few years back that said to call it intentional. The bench had a right to be upset, but not to conduct themselves in the manner in which they did. Just because there is only eight seconds remaining in a twenty point game that doesn't mean that you should stop calling the game correctly.

2. Since you are certain that the original comment came from one of the three male assistant coaches, you should have one of them removed and pin the flagrant technical foul on that individual. How do you go about doing that? You inform the head coach that she needs to have whichever one of her assistants said that remark leave and you aren't continuing the game until that happens. If you don't get quick compliance, tell the coach that you will have to suspend the game at this point and file a report with the appropriate governing body.
"Now coach, do you really want that to happen? The (appropriate governing body) could strip you of this win and declare the game a forfeit. Don't let it come to that and just have him leave. Thanks." (walk away now and watch asst coach leave, then resume game)

I'm 99% certain that this will work. I've used the tactic before under similar circumstances.

1. I understand that my description of the original foul wasn't very good. The defender had her hand out playing good defense, A1 made a move towards her and B1 gave her a push. A1's momentum kept going with B1's hand stuck there. My partner was not going to calling that an intentional foul as he had already called the push. From a game management position I could see calling an intentional, but at that point B1 had not tried to foul to stop the clock yet and the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey. I agree you can't stop calling the game in that situation.

2. My partner discussed the possibility of using a similar strategy but 1) Didn't want to spend anymore time over there than necessary. 2) Wanted to properly apply NFHS rules (only none of us were certain). Our assignor has taken issue to his college officials using NCAA rules or making up rules.

3. We could have had more flagrant technicals for the second and third comments however the R was the first to admit that he didn't want to run the risk of running the whole bench ( code for he didn't want to add to the paperwork ).

4. We discussed a forefit and decided that since the bench had almost immediately cooled down after the last outburst and everyone took a seat, that we wouldn't take that route.

As a follow-up to the situation, after our report was submitted, we received an e-mail from the coach apologizing for "ruining" the game (she also sent this to the other team). She acknowledged that there was no intentional foul and that she should have had better control over her bench. The school "asked" the head coach to "remove" two of the assistants. The head coach also sat out a game. It turns out that the original comment came from a guy who had a grudge from about 5 years ago against the calling official when this joker used to be a head coach (this coming from the AD, who didn't like the guy in the first place). My partner had no idea.

Assignor reviewed the tape and the report and didn't have any problems with our decisions. The funny thing is that when we asked him about a rules backing for a direct t to the head coach for anonymous bench conduct, he was unable to come up with one.

[Nevadaref]

My responses in Red.

Originally Posted by CJRef

1. I understand that my description of the original foul wasn't very good. The defender had her hand out playing good defense, A1 made a move towards her and B1 gave her a push. A1's momentum kept going with B1's hand stuck there. My partner was not going to calling that an intentional foul as he had already called the push. From a game management position I could see calling an intentional, but at that point B1 had not tried to foul to stop the clock yet and the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey. I agree you can't stop calling the game in that situation.
I believe that you are missing my point. I'm not talking about game management or stopping the clock. I'm telling you that grabbing a handful of an opponent's jersey is flat-out an intentional personal foul.

2. My partner discussed the possibility of using a similar strategy but 1) Didn't want to spend anymore time over there than necessary. 2) Wanted to properly apply NFHS rules (only none of us were certain). Our assignor has taken issue to his college officials using NCAA rules or making up rules.
Understandable and a good thought.

3. We could have had more flagrant technicals for the second and third comments however the R was the first to admit that he didn't want to run the risk of running the whole bench ( code for he didn't want to add to the paperwork ).
Very chicken of the R. I wonder what your assignor thinks of his unwillingness to assess proper penalties to those who misbehave. The excuse of having to do paperwork had better be a joke. He wasn't risking tossing the whole bench. The bench personnel's behavior put them all at risk of being run.

4. We discussed a forefit and decided that since the bench had almost immediately cooled down after the last outburst and everyone took a seat, that we wouldn't take that route.
The situation didn't warrant a forfeit. I agree. However, you needed to get the people whose behavior was totally unacceptable out of there and if that meant every adult on the bench, then so be it. If that means a forfeit in your state, then that's the way it goes as well. Never ignore unsporting behavior. Never fail to punish unsporting behavior of which you are aware.

As a follow-up to the situation, after our report was submitted, we received an e-mail from the coach apologizing for "ruining" the game (she also sent this to the other team). She acknowledged that there was no intentional foul and that she should have had better control over her bench. The school "asked" the head coach to "remove" two of the assistants. The head coach also sat out a game. It turns out that the original comment came from a guy who had a grudge from about 5 years ago against the calling official when this joker used to be a head coach (this coming from the AD, who didn't like the guy in the first place). My partner had no idea.
Yep, and I can now assure you that had you instructed the Head Coach to remove the offending AC even though you couldn't pinpoint him, she would have. Kudos to the school admin for stepping up and doing the right thing in the aftermath.

Assignor reviewed the tape and the report and didn't have any problems with our decisions. The funny thing is that when we asked him about a rules backing for a direct t to the head coach for anonymous bench conduct, he was unable to come up with one.
That's because there isn't one. We've discussed this issue before on this very forum too. Perhaps the NFHS committee will finally give us something this summer. There is such a rule for NFHS soccer. Given that the NFHS has previously stated that it intends for all of it's sports to be conducted in the same manner regarding issues such as sportsmanship and player safety, I wouldn't be surprised to see bench conduct rules become uniform throughout all NFHS sports.

[jdw3018]

Nevada, in response to your post above - if the foul was for illegal contact prior to the grabbing of the jersey, then wouldn't an IF have been the wrong call? That seems to be what he indicated in his post - that the foul was for contact prior to the grabbing, which means the jersey grab was dead ball contact...

[Nevadaref]

"the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey"

The way I understand this, it was one continuous act. I would penalize the according to the most severe aspect of the play. That's the handful of jersey.

[CJRef]

Nevada...I've got to agree with you on most everything...

Apparently I'm the one confusing you with my description, let's try this B 's hand got stuck almost "in" the jersey, after the whistle had blown for the push. Obviously it won't make sense unless you see it, but there really was not an intentional foul there.

We did take the chicken way out with the other t's but I think the other thing that crossed the R's mind was that the f-bomb does not merit an automatic flagrant in our area. Obviously given the climate of the situation, I think those were flagrants. We were doing a disservice to our fellow officials that work HS games on a regular basis.

What if the head coach hadn't gone along with your request? Now you're threatening a forefit, which would be allowable if they were failing to comply with a technical foul. But in my opinion you haven't issued a valid technical at that point (not on a specific person) and you've also issued an invalid ultimatum. Granted at this point there's no NFHS rules concerning this.

I agree that the NFHS needs to address these types of situations, bench decorum keeps on getting worse every year, especially from the assistants and other bench personnel. Adopting the NCAA rule would work for me.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CJRef

... the other thing that crossed the R's mind was that the f-bomb does not merit an automatic flagrant in our area. ...We were doing a disservice to our fellow officials that work HS games on a regular basis.

Your R is crazy. Your final thought is correct.

Originally Posted by CJRef

What if the head coach hadn't gone along with your request? Now you're threatening a forefit, which would be allowable if they were failing to comply with a technical foul. But in my opinion you haven't issued a valid technical at that point (not on a specific person) and you've also issued an invalid ultimatum. Granted at this point there's no NFHS rules concerning this.

Three things:
1. I never said that I would forfeit the game. I said that I would suspend the contest and file a report. I can make an educated guess that the state office woud forfeit the game.
2. If the HC doesn't comply just pin the FTF on one of the three individuals that you believe said it. Afterall it is your decision who you believe is the culprit as the official is the arbiter of facts for the game. Then make sure to put it all in the report.
3. Yeah, it's not definitely covered, so 2-3 could be used to justify any reasonable decision.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

"The push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey"

We would have had to be there to comment on the correct call, but, again, without being there, from the post, it appears that the push came before the jersey tug. Is it possible that once the whistle was blown for the push, that the defender could have been pulling on the jersey to prevent the offensive player from falling down?

Also, is it possible to have two separate calls here, a common foul for the push, and a technical intentional foul for the jersey tug during the dead ball immediately after the first foul? We're not supposed to ignore intentional or flagrant fouls during dead ball periods.

Again, I guess that you had to be there?