Blowout becomes a mess

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rodical

Or even when it's live ......... Over the years, I've tried to develop a 'deaf ear' (not too difficult for me, since my hearing IS diminished), but in certain situations, such as the OP, it seems that if the poster could've just "not heard" the remark, things would've been much better......Once they've "gotten my attention", then we've got a whole new situation.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!!

MTD, Sr.

[TimTaylor]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!!

MTD, Sr.

My sentiments exactly Mark. In the situation in the OP there was no real viable option. When this crap happens it's best to just take care of business - saves a lot of grief in the long run..........

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Addressing your second situation: This is definitely a Direct TF against the A1C-A (and if HC-A's Direct TF was not a Flagrant TF, then we have an Indirect TF against HC-A...)snip... (and if HC-A's Direct TF was not a Flagrant TF, then we have an Indirect TF against HC-A....)

Mark,
Let's say the HC had previously been ejected, do we then have to pick a new HC among the other two, and thus apply the next AC's TF against the other indirectly?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Mark,
Let's say the HC had previously been ejected, do we then have to pick a new HC among the other two, and thus apply the next AC's TF against the other indirectly?

Snaqwells:

Yes.

Why are you up so late? LOL I am watching the rebroadcast of Olbermann.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

I'm on Mountain time, it ain't so late here.
I'm away from home in a hotel room in Denver. I'm not watching anything in particular on TV (nothing's really on).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm on Mountain time, it ain't so late here.
I'm away from home in a hotel room in Denver. I'm not watching anything in particular on TV (nothing's really on).

Snaqwells:

I just answered you post about free throws. I am going to bed. Have a good one and stay away from the certain type of pay per view movies. LOL

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Our (Colorado Air National Guard) local contract has me in a hotel that does not have that option. It's a bit cheaper this way, and comes with free internet access, a fridge, and a microwave. Beats the heck out of $9.99 per day for internet access, no appliances, $30 room service, and optional $13 movies (our 2nd option when this particular establishment is full).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Not withstanding my position concerning Team Captains, the Head Coach is the one, by rule, that receives either a Direct TF or Indirect TF's for TF's committed by Bench Personnel.

Withstanding your position, why don't you give the captain a technical foul instead of the head coach?

'Splain that one.

[johnnyrao]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Therefore: HC-A is disqualified and ejected for accumulating one Direct TF and two Indirect TF's; A1C-A is ejected for receiving one Direct TF which was a Flagrant TF; and A2C-A is ejected for receiving one Direct TF which was a Flagrant TF. Team B will shoot six (6) free throws.
MTD, Sr.

Just curious: If A only had three coaches, and this situation happens, would it be an automatic forfeit since they no longer have anyone available to coach? Can a school administrator take over?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Withstanding your position, why don't you give the captain a technical foul instead of the head coach?

'Splain that one.

JR:

Because the Rules state that the Head Coach is the Bench Personnel member that receives the punishment for Bench Personnel misconduct.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CJRef

Girls Varsity. Team A is up by 20, wants an intentional called with 8 seconds left, doesn't get it. Trail is right in front of A's bench. Trail hears a male voice yell "You're un****ing believable" from the bench. Could not have been the players (girls), trainer or head coach (women), no spectators behind the bench, so it leaves one the three male assistants. Trail spins around instantly but all three have their poker faces on. Trail blows whistle, walks to table and announces a T on the head coach, she then loses it. By now the lead is over at the table to get him out of there but before he does, head coach says "How can you call that on me, I didn't say it" to which the trail tells the head coach she's in charge of the bench, that's why she picked it up. As that is happening, one of the assistants gets in the way and says "get this dumbass (unfortunately I'm pretty sure he was referring to my partner) out of here". I'm now over in the area while trying to keep on eye on the players. As my partners are coming to meet with me away from the bench, I hear another one of the assistants yell directly at us "What a f***ing joke". We discuss that we now have two more technicals and an ejection. I go to report what we have, the bench all of a sudden calmed down, coach leaves, we shoot the free throws and finish the game.

The whole thing took us by surprise since they hadn't said a word the entire game and the foul they wanted was for an accidental jersey grab.
Afterwards we discussed the situation at length and discussed variations and other questions. What is the most effective way to deal with a bench issue that merits a technical but cannot be attributed to an individual? Would you have a flagrant for the original comment?

1. I see that you said the act was accidental, but it is still a foul and there was a POE a few years back that said to call it intentional. The bench had a right to be upset, but not to conduct themselves in the manner in which they did. Just because there is only eight seconds remaining in a twenty point game that doesn't mean that you should stop calling the game correctly.

2. Since you are certain that the original comment came from one of the three male assistant coaches, you should have one of them removed and pin the flagrant technical foul on that individual. How do you go about doing that? You inform the head coach that she needs to have whichever one of her assistants said that remark leave and you aren't continuing the game until that happens. If you don't get quick compliance, tell the coach that you will have to suspend the game at this point and file a report with the appropriate governing body.
"Now coach, do you really want that to happen? The (appropriate governing body) could strip you of this win and declare the game a forfeit. Don't let it come to that and just have him leave. Thanks." (walk away now and watch asst coach leave, then resume game)

I'm 99% certain that this will work. I've used the tactic before under similar circumstances.

[SmokeEater]

You can be almost assured the AC who dropped the second F bomb probably dropped the first as well. At least that has been my experience.

[CJRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. I see that you said the act was accidental, but it is still a foul and there was a POE a few years back that said to call it intentional. The bench had a right to be upset, but not to conduct themselves in the manner in which they did. Just because there is only eight seconds remaining in a twenty point game that doesn't mean that you should stop calling the game correctly.

2. Since you are certain that the original comment came from one of the three male assistant coaches, you should have one of them removed and pin the flagrant technical foul on that individual. How do you go about doing that? You inform the head coach that she needs to have whichever one of her assistants said that remark leave and you aren't continuing the game until that happens. If you don't get quick compliance, tell the coach that you will have to suspend the game at this point and file a report with the appropriate governing body.
"Now coach, do you really want that to happen? The (appropriate governing body) could strip you of this win and declare the game a forfeit. Don't let it come to that and just have him leave. Thanks." (walk away now and watch asst coach leave, then resume game)

I'm 99% certain that this will work. I've used the tactic before under similar circumstances.

1. I understand that my description of the original foul wasn't very good. The defender had her hand out playing good defense, A1 made a move towards her and B1 gave her a push. A1's momentum kept going with B1's hand stuck there. My partner was not going to calling that an intentional foul as he had already called the push. From a game management position I could see calling an intentional, but at that point B1 had not tried to foul to stop the clock yet and the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey. I agree you can't stop calling the game in that situation.

2. My partner discussed the possibility of using a similar strategy but 1) Didn't want to spend anymore time over there than necessary. 2) Wanted to properly apply NFHS rules (only none of us were certain). Our assignor has taken issue to his college officials using NCAA rules or making up rules.

3. We could have had more flagrant technicals for the second and third comments however the R was the first to admit that he didn't want to run the risk of running the whole bench ( code for he didn't want to add to the paperwork ).

4. We discussed a forefit and decided that since the bench had almost immediately cooled down after the last outburst and everyone took a seat, that we wouldn't take that route.

As a follow-up to the situation, after our report was submitted, we received an e-mail from the coach apologizing for "ruining" the game (she also sent this to the other team). She acknowledged that there was no intentional foul and that she should have had better control over her bench. The school "asked" the head coach to "remove" two of the assistants. The head coach also sat out a game. It turns out that the original comment came from a guy who had a grudge from about 5 years ago against the calling official when this joker used to be a head coach (this coming from the AD, who didn't like the guy in the first place). My partner had no idea.

Assignor reviewed the tape and the report and didn't have any problems with our decisions. The funny thing is that when we asked him about a rules backing for a direct t to the head coach for anonymous bench conduct, he was unable to come up with one.

[Nevadaref]

My responses in Red.

Originally Posted by CJRef

1. I understand that my description of the original foul wasn't very good. The defender had her hand out playing good defense, A1 made a move towards her and B1 gave her a push. A1's momentum kept going with B1's hand stuck there. My partner was not going to calling that an intentional foul as he had already called the push. From a game management position I could see calling an intentional, but at that point B1 had not tried to foul to stop the clock yet and the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey. I agree you can't stop calling the game in that situation.
I believe that you are missing my point. I'm not talking about game management or stopping the clock. I'm telling you that grabbing a handful of an opponent's jersey is flat-out an intentional personal foul.

2. My partner discussed the possibility of using a similar strategy but 1) Didn't want to spend anymore time over there than necessary. 2) Wanted to properly apply NFHS rules (only none of us were certain). Our assignor has taken issue to his college officials using NCAA rules or making up rules.
Understandable and a good thought.

3. We could have had more flagrant technicals for the second and third comments however the R was the first to admit that he didn't want to run the risk of running the whole bench ( code for he didn't want to add to the paperwork ).
Very chicken of the R. I wonder what your assignor thinks of his unwillingness to assess proper penalties to those who misbehave. The excuse of having to do paperwork had better be a joke. He wasn't risking tossing the whole bench. The bench personnel's behavior put them all at risk of being run.

4. We discussed a forefit and decided that since the bench had almost immediately cooled down after the last outburst and everyone took a seat, that we wouldn't take that route.
The situation didn't warrant a forfeit. I agree. However, you needed to get the people whose behavior was totally unacceptable out of there and if that meant every adult on the bench, then so be it. If that means a forfeit in your state, then that's the way it goes as well. Never ignore unsporting behavior. Never fail to punish unsporting behavior of which you are aware.

As a follow-up to the situation, after our report was submitted, we received an e-mail from the coach apologizing for "ruining" the game (she also sent this to the other team). She acknowledged that there was no intentional foul and that she should have had better control over her bench. The school "asked" the head coach to "remove" two of the assistants. The head coach also sat out a game. It turns out that the original comment came from a guy who had a grudge from about 5 years ago against the calling official when this joker used to be a head coach (this coming from the AD, who didn't like the guy in the first place). My partner had no idea.
Yep, and I can now assure you that had you instructed the Head Coach to remove the offending AC even though you couldn't pinpoint him, she would have. Kudos to the school admin for stepping up and doing the right thing in the aftermath.

Assignor reviewed the tape and the report and didn't have any problems with our decisions. The funny thing is that when we asked him about a rules backing for a direct t to the head coach for anonymous bench conduct, he was unable to come up with one.
That's because there isn't one. We've discussed this issue before on this very forum too. Perhaps the NFHS committee will finally give us something this summer. There is such a rule for NFHS soccer. Given that the NFHS has previously stated that it intends for all of it's sports to be conducted in the same manner regarding issues such as sportsmanship and player safety, I wouldn't be surprised to see bench conduct rules become uniform throughout all NFHS sports.

[jdw3018]

Nevada, in response to your post above - if the foul was for illegal contact prior to the grabbing of the jersey, then wouldn't an IF have been the wrong call? That seems to be what he indicated in his post - that the foul was for contact prior to the grabbing, which means the jersey grab was dead ball contact...