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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 07:54am
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End of blowout antics

Had a game last night which was a 40+ point blowout. Losing team started to get physical at the end of the game. We called EVERYTHING but to no avail.

Question is this: B1 ran at and tried to deliberately push A1. My partner told me this after the game and we debated on what to call. I believe a T would be the answer since no contract was made while the ball was live.

Comments?
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 07:59am
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He tried to push him but completely missed him and made no contact?

Nothing. If he's that inept, he doesn't earn a T. Just tell him to knock it off.
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 07:59am
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Can you give more detail?
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 08:03am
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Well if he had pushed him...flagrant and gone in my book.
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 08:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
He tried to push him but completely missed him and made no contact?

Nothing. If he's that inept, he doesn't earn a T. Just tell him to knock it off.
She actually, A1 was frustrated and apparently wanted to take out her frustration on another player.

If it was deliberate, a warning then if actions persisted a T?
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 08:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukealex
Had a game last night which was a 40+ point blowout. Losing team started to get physical at the end of the game. We called EVERYTHING but to no avail.

Question is this: B1 ran at and tried to deliberately push A1. My partner told me this after the game and we debated on what to call. I believe a T would be the answer since no contract was made while the ball was live.

Comments?
It depends. If you felt the game was starting to get out of control and you needed to reel it back in, maybe a T would be good. Or maybe you go tell B's coach that you'd like a sub for B1 (if the coach is reasonable). I would have had to be there.
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 09:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukealex
Question is this: B1 ran at and tried to deliberately push A1. My partner told me this after the game and we debated on what to call. I believe a T would be the answer since no contract was made while the ball was live.
Contact----> either an intentional or flagrant personal or technical foul depending on whether the ball was live or not.

No contact----> technical foul for an un unsporting act.

You should never allow a player to get away with an act like that. A warning is the same as just letting 'em skate imo. And....if you warn one player for doing something like that, then you had better be prepared to warn every player in that game for similar acts. You gotta be consistent. I'll guarantee you though that if you're warning everybody, you're gonna have something additional to a push occurring sometime....like a retaliation of some kind.

Nip it, nip it in the bud!
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 09:42am
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Warnings And ????

How effective are warnings ? In my short experience in the officiating world I would say other than the 3 seconds in the key warning, most warnings end up having to be further addressed.

Also where in the rulebook is the "coach you need to sub out this player ?" mechanic. Player acting the fool deal with it. I know , I know preventative officiating but is my thinking off in that I don't care if they act stupid-I address it according to the rulebook. Really if the coach doesn't know or can't see a player is out of control the next 3 quick tweets will help him come to that conclusion....

I like the nip in the bud and nip it early thinking....
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 10:30am
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Blowouts are hard. The team getting blown out can eventually begin to feel that they have nothing more to lose and don't care any more. It's good that you and your partner were aware of the sitch and were calling it tight. As for the attempted push, this is an obvious escalation and, I think, must be handled. Nothing good will come of you letting 'em skate, as JR put it. One, or more, of three things could very easily happen if you don't call the T:
  • B1 will soon do something worse
  • B2 will see that you didn't whack B1 and do something similar, or worse
  • A1, or A2, will see that you didn't handle it, and decide to "handle it" for you
It sounds like you got out of the situation with no harm. Congrats. I think that's the best you can hope for in a 40 point blowout.

I have a related question for the brain trust: At what point would you consider forfeiting a blowout that had gotten, or was getting, out of control?
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 11:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chess Ref
How effective are warnings ? In my short experience in the officiating world I would say other than the 3 seconds in the key warning, most warnings end up having to be further addressed.

Also where in the rulebook is the "coach you need to sub out this player ?" mechanic. Player acting the fool deal with it. I know , I know preventative officiating but is my thinking off in that I don't care if they act stupid-I address it according to the rulebook. Really if the coach doesn't know or can't see a player is out of control the next 3 quick tweets will help him come to that conclusion....

I like the nip in the bud and nip it early thinking....
I agree that you need to nip things in the bud early on, but I find that talking to players helps. Since the player did not make contact, I can't see calling a T here. I'd grab the player and tell them I understand why he's frustrated, no one likes to lose, but you can lose in a sportsmanlike manner. I'd probably try to use some humor and definitely go with a smile on my face at this point. It seems to work for me in most cases like this, but with management, what works for one doesn't always work for others.
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukealex
She actually, A1 was frustrated and apparently wanted to take out her frustration on another player.

If it was deliberate, a warning then if actions persisted a T?
Wait.

A1 runs at B1 & then pushes her?

And you want to warn A1?

That's an immediate flagrant.
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 12:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Wait.

A1 runs at B1 & then pushes her?

And you want to warn A1?

That's an immediate flagrant.
Dan,
She was unsuccessful in making contact. For me to call the attempt unsporting, it would have to have been REALLY, REALLY bad and obvious what she was doing. I think I'd talk to her, a captain, or a coach to try to get her calmed down or on the bench.
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 12:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Junker
Dan,
She was unsuccessful in making contact. For me to call the attempt unsporting, it would have to have been REALLY, REALLY bad and obvious what she was doing. I think I'd talk to her, a captain, or a coach to try to get her calmed down or on the bench.
Blow-out, out of control, losers headhunting despite whistles, A1 runs at B1 & attempts to push B1 but misses.

A1's getting tossed. We've already progressed to REALLY, REALLY bad and obvious. When A1 rushes B1 we're no longer refereeing a basketball game.

btw..take a good look at the fighting rule.
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 12:34pm
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I agree that this player is not trying to be a basketball player, but are you sure you could sell intent to the coach or your assignor. This situation makes me think of the classic coaches line (I think it was Jimmy V) about "can you T me up for what I'm thinking, I think you suck". Tossing a player for this might be opening a can of worms you don't want to open. Trust me in saying that I enforce sportsmanship as much as anyone, but I would be more prone to try to manage this situation without an ejection.
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Old Fri Sep 29, 2006, 12:39pm
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Dan,
Do you have a rules book handy to post the part about fighting you're referencing? I'm at work and have my football gear with me, but not my basketball stuff. I'd like to see where you're coming from.
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