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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 12:06pm
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SOWB_Ref, your example is waaay out in left field. You have a great point about adding a name to the book. I don't have a problem giving a T, because the player is a team member, he just not playing in this game. I don't care if you add his name or not( for this situation) i wouldn't give another T to add his name to the book when we are under the 10min. mark. I think you are going beyond the spirit of the rules by adding the name and giving another T. And if you add the name (for this situation ) and don't give a T because it is under the 10min mark, then Yes I would allow him to play in the game. However, i can see putting yourself in a pickle if you don't add to the roster and later the coach decides to play him.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 02:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bart Tyson
SOWB_Ref, your example is waaay out in left field. You have a great point about adding a name to the book. I don't have a problem giving a T, because the player is a team member, he just not playing in this game. I don't care if you add his name or not( for this situation) i wouldn't give another T to add his name to the book when we are under the 10min. mark. I think you are going beyond the spirit of the rules by adding the name and giving another T. And if you add the name (for this situation ) and don't give a T because it is under the 10min mark, then Yes I would allow him to play in the game. However, i can see putting yourself in a pickle if you don't add to the roster and later the coach decides to play him.

Bart I don't support adding a player so you can give them a T for the Dunk. My points are this

1. Player Eligibility is defined by those persons who are submitted to the official score book. Those persons are team members. We as officials (unless obligated under state association)do not have jursidiction over eligibility. I believe because of that we don't have the authority to summarily add or subtract anyone from that roster based on eligibility. We can disqualify a team member but we can force someone on the roster

2. Anyone else is either a Head Coach, bench personnel, or a spectator (this includes game management, band, and cheerleaders, but I will stipulate different rules apply to them in differing situations to these).

That is how percieve the rules. Here is how I would employ my judgement.

The person who dunked, isn't on the roster so they are either bench personnel or a spectator, and in my judgement any person on the floor warming up with team members in uniform is bench personnel. Following my post earlier I would hold bench personnel to the same code of conduct as players as such I would administer the T as a bench T with an indirect to the head coach.

I apologize if anyone thought I was trying to explain a method of absolving the person or head coach of the penalty. I just concerned in the manner in which it was administered.


Now having said all that there is one thing I am uncertain of. I was sure there was a rule stipulating only team members could conduct a pregame warm up. I searched the book but was unable to find a reference to this.

You are right my situations were way out there, I intended as such. I had only hoped to show conflicts in enforcing the matter as Mark has tried to do.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 03:38pm
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Possession Arrow

Okay Mark, you said without looking at my book, so here's my take on this.

Team B shoots the T's. I say PA is set to Team A after Team B is given the ball for the throw-in.

How'd I do?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 04:08pm
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Cool Re: Possession Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by bard
Okay Mark, you said without looking at my book, so here's my take on this.

Team B shoots the T's. I say PA is set to Team A after Team B is given the ball for the throw-in.

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Why do you need to set the Public Address system? Isn't it already set by those nerds in the Audio-Visual club?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 04:11pm
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What if it were one of the varsity players warming up with the JV squad? Would you add that person's name to the JV roster for the purpose of assessing the T? What if it were a player that was suspended by the state for an ejection in his previous game? If he's added to the roster to assess him a T wouldn't that make him a participant in the game? If so, wouldn't that team have to forfeit the game? What a can of worms! I hope I never encounter this problem but I would like to know what to do if it ever does happen.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 04:56pm
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Re: Re: Possession Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Why do you need to set the Public Address system? Isn't it already set by those nerds in the Audio-Visual club?
Hey!!! We're not nerds - we're popularity challenged!!

To Mark T.D., why, in your scenario, would you not add A1 to the book if they recieved an unsportsmanlike T at some point during the game, but you would add to the roster for dunking in pre-game?

I think the intent is to penalize the pre-game dunk. If A1 is truly a player and needs to be added, then the extra T should be assessed. If A1 warmed up, didn't dunk, then never came into the game, there would be no need to add to the book, and there is no need here - there is space in the book for miscelaneous technicals.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 09:56pm
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NFHS R4-S34-A4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and eligible to play.

The word eligible in NFHS R4-S34-A4 refers to team members whose names are in the scorebook , it does not refer to the StateHSAA rules pertaining to athletic eligiblity. Officials are only concerned with the eligibility per R4-S34-A4, not the StateHSAA rules.

Lets look at the play from a different perspective. A13 is supposed to have his name in the scorebook and he dunks the ball at the (a) the 12 min. mark or (b) the 8 min. mark, and both cases A13's name is NOT in the scorebook. A13 is still going to be charged with a technical foul in either case and his name will have to be added to the scorebook. This situation is not any different than if A13 was not planning to play in the game that night and just wanted to be on the bench and in uniform.

At this point we really should be discussing (b) and why the officials did not discover that fact that A13's name was not in the scorebook at the 10 min. mark in first place. But that is a discussion for another time.

As officials we do not care about whether or not the team member is eligible per StateHSAA rules. That is a problem for the schools involved and the StateHSAA. In either (a) or (b) A13's name has to be added to the book if A13 dunks that ball. As I said before, school mangagement is to blame for having a player that does not meet StateHSAA eligibility requirments taking part in game activities. As officials we must assume (I know, making an A(ss) of U and Me) that all players in team uniform are team members. No matter what the coach or the athletic director tells us about the player's StateHSAA eligibility, if A13 puts on a uniform and takes part in game activities he is a team member.

I was asked why I would not add A13's name to the scorebook if he commits a unsportsmanlike foul as bench personnel. That is a good question, and I have been thinking about it and to be honest I make do an about face on my interpretation on it. That also means I am going to talk to others to get their opinion on it. I am now leaning in the other direction.

But in the matter of dunking a dead ball, A13's name has to be added to the scorebook because of this technical foul which means the scenario in the above paragraph may require it to to be consistent.

As to the direction and when the Alternating Arrow is set. The AP is set toward B's basket when the ball is placed at Team B's disposal for the throw-in after the free throws for the technical foul(s).
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 15, 2002, 01:41pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Lets look at the play from a different perspective. A13 is supposed to have his name in the scorebook and he dunks the ball at the (a) the 12 min. mark or (b) the 8 min. mark, and both cases A13's name is NOT in the scorebook. A13 is still going to be charged with a technical foul in either case and his name will have to be added to the scorebook. This situation is not any different than if A13 was not planning to play in the game that night and just wanted to be on the bench and in uniform.


Does this mean that if you discovered / were notified about A13 (who didn't dunk) sitting on the bench and not being in the book that you'd have him/her added and assess the T?

If so, I disagree -- if A13 is in uniform but doesn't play, s/he doesn't need to be added to the book.

Quote:
As to the direction and when the Alternating Arrow is set. The AP is set toward B's basket when the ball is placed at Team B's disposal for the throw-in after the free throws for the technical foul(s).
I'd set the arrow toward A's basket.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 15, 2002, 02:06pm
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Bob, why would you set the AP arrow toward's Team A's basket? The techncial foul was against Team A.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 15, 2002, 02:11pm
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why would you set the AP arrow toward's Team A's basket? The techncial foul was against Team A.

Mark, I'm a little confused here, which isn't difficult. But since when does a technical foul affect the AP arrow? (I still haven't pulled the book out on this, but it looks like I better!)

Team A has already been penalized through B getting the foul shots and the initial possession. It seems logical to me that also giving B the AP (not the PA!) is an excessive penalty. Now I'll pull out the book and see where my logic is failing this time!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 15, 2002, 02:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Bob, why would you set the AP arrow toward's Team A's basket? The techncial foul was against Team A.
Exactly. Which means that Team B will get the first possession of the game. That means that Team A should get the next AP opportunity. Right?

Chuck
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 15, 2002, 03:03pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Bob, why would you set the AP arrow toward's Team A's basket? The techncial foul was against Team A.
Just following 4-3, Mark (make that R4-S3)
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 15, 2002, 03:14pm
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If I'm reading 4-3 correctly, AP is set to Team A when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower from Team B after "the free throws for a noncommon foul."

I've scoured 6-2, 6-3, and 10-3-5 and can find no justification for giving Team B both the ball and the AP.

The note on 6-2 says, "Any rules statement is made on the assumption that no infraction is involved unless mentioned or implied. If such infraction occurs, the rule governing it is followed. For example, a game or extra period will not start with a jump ball if a foul occurs before the ball becomes live."

The governing rule in this situation appears to be 10-3-5. However, 10-3-5 does not give us any indication of what should happen to the AP arrow. 6-3 also does not appear to answer this question. Therefore, it appears to me that 4-3 wins, and 10-3-5 ought to be written more clearly next year!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 15, 2002, 09:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Bob, why would you set the AP arrow toward's Team A's basket? The techncial foul was against Team A.
Just following 4-3, Mark (make that R4-S3)

NFHS R4-S3-A3b: Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set the toward the opponent's basket when the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after the free throws for a noncommon foul.

A technical foul is not a common foul by definition and the free throws and the throw-in after the free throws are the penalty for the technical foul. This is why the possession arrow is set toward's Team A's basket after the ball is placed at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in that is part of the penalty for the technical foul.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 16, 2002, 10:29am
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Wink

As to the direction and when the Alternating Arrow is set. The AP is set toward B's basket when the ball is placed at Team B's disposal for the throw-in after the free throws for the technical foul(s). 2/14/2002

This is why the possession arrow is set toward's Team A's basket after the ball is placed at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in that is part of the penalty for the technical foul. 2/15/2002

I'll assume your earlier post was a typo, Mr. DeNucci?!?
;-) Good thread/discussion. I learned something. Of course, all I have left this year is 6th grade girls, so I really doubt I'll have to worry about pre-game dunks!!! :-)
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