Partner tosses coach in first minute of game!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Well I must say I have never heard of anything remotely close to this, unbelievable. I certainly would see why someone would want a individual like this out of their game. By the letter of the law (sort of speak)I just can't find where the rules support a Flagrant Technical for his comments.

In a 8th grade game, why not. If its a varsity game I just don't think the rules support it. Whack him!!! Let him know why loud enough for the players to hear. Let the players know anything close to a punch being thrown would be ejection from this game and they would have to sit the next.

He can't be charged for fighting or leaving the bench during a fight. Which would be the only Flagrant Technical options. Fighting being defined in Rule 4-18

Art. 1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

Art.2 An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act TOWARD an opponent that CAUSES AN OPPONENT TO RETALIATE BY FIGHTING.
IMO I think your only option here is to tag him with the following...

FED Rule 10-4 Bench Technicals Art 1 c. Using profane or inappropriate language or obscene gestures.

Sure the rules support the official's actions in the OP, whether it is an 8th grade game, H.S. varisty game, or a Div. I game. This kind of conduct should never (my apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley; my 2nd apology of the day to J. Dallas) be condoned. If anybody complained I would back my partner up all the way to hell and back.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Sure the rules support the official's actions in the OP, whether it is an 8th grade game, H.S. varisty game, or a Div. I game. This kind of conduct should never (my apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley; my 2nd apology of the day to J. Dallas) be condoned. If anybody complained I would backed my partner up all of the way to hell and back.

MTD, Sr.

No matter what I would back my partner up!!!

NEVER, NEVER leave your WINGMAN!!!!

I can see in a 8th grade game, MAYBE in a Varsity game, but not @ all in any level NCAA game. ( I don't think this would ever happen @ the High school Varsity or NCAA levels anyway.)

If I eject a coach for a comment they made to a player I'm losing games. It's not nothing @ the DI level to hear coaches dropping the "F" bomb to their players. (Could be defined as vulgar language)

As I said I don't have a problem with tossing this 8th grade coach. Hopefully the officials turned him in and he's done coaching. My part in this discussion was to make sure we were supported in the rule book. Maybe it could be maybe it isn't.

IMO I'm not ejecting a coach for the comment @ the Varsity or NCAA level. I'm "WHACKING," making sure everyone understands why, talking to my partners & playing on.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Hopefully the officials turned him in and he's done coaching.

Unfortunately, there's no one to whom to "turn him in". All these teams are independent and just contract for their games. I know a lot of the parents heard him, so maybe they'll do something about it. Probably not, though.

I reminded my partner to report it to our assignor, but all he can do is maybe give a heads up to guys who will have this team in the future. I doubt I'll get them again because he usually assigns me to boys games. What was weird was that I knew lots of parents and kids from the home team, which is based in my town. In fact, the scorekeeper is also the treasurer of our rec league. She has another kid who plays in that organization. She was shocked when she found out what happened and said if her daughter was the target and got punched, she not only would be on the phone to her lawyer, but her husband, who was in the stands, would make a soprano out of that coach. Cool. That I'd like to see.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I can see in a 8th grade game, MAYBE in a Varsity game, but not @ all in any level NCAA game. ( I don't think this would ever happen @ the High school Varsity or NCAA levels anyway.)

IMO I'm not ejecting a coach for the comment @ the Varsity or NCAA level.

OH? Ever heard of what happened to John Chaney at Temple when he sent a player out to get another player?

Grow some balls and take care of bidness. That's my opinion.

[mj]

Another parent yelled the same thing to his son playing against mine last weekend in a third grade game...great role models.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by mj

Another parent yelled the same thing to his son playing against mine last weekend in a third grade game...great role models.

So what did you do? I know what I would have done.

Please don't tell us you just let it pass.

[mj]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

So what did you do? I know what I would have done.

Please don't tell us you just let it pass.

Unfortunately, I did not hear it during the game. I must've been too busy coaching. The story was relayed to me long after the game was over. Apparently, this started some words amongst the other parents though.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OH? Ever heard of what happened to John Chaney at Temple when he sent a player out to get another player?

Grow some balls and take care of bidness. That's my opinion.

I forgot about this thanks for the friendly reminder...OH, and I appreciate the. "Grow some balls," statement. That was a very intelligent adult thing to write (IMO)!!!

Go back and read my posts. I never said to not take care of "bidness" (business). If fact I would still be "whacking" this coach for the comment just not tossing. Again I'm not assessing a Flagrant T for a comment to a player that requires ejection. IMHO Bench Technical is what would be allowed by rule for a comment that doesn't instigate a fight or initiate a fight!!! ( Thats as far as my business degree will allow me to go!!!)

Different story if the ball is in play and coach says, punch him, player punches him. Flagrant personnel on player & Flagrant T on the coach. (Again because the action happened & the coach initiated it, a fight.)

The reason Chaney got suspended was due the severity of the fouls of Ingram, and that Chaney admitted to telling him to do what he did in his press conference!!!

If Ingram never committed the fouls then there would've been no suspension the mere fact he said to do it doesn't become a problem unless he does it. The bench "T" lets him and his players know you heard it and its not going to happen. Assess the Bench "T", talk to your partners, get it in the book and play on.

The calling of the Bench Technical will require a call to your supervisor. Make the call when you leave and explain what happened. The supervisor would then take it up with the conference and they would take it from there. (Taking care of BIDNESS!!!)

I attached the links to the story and box scores.


http://sjuhawks.cstv.com/sports/m-ba...022205aaa.html

http://sjuhawks.cstv.com/sports/m-ba...022205aaa.html

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

OH, and I appreciate the. "Grow some balls," statement.

That was, and is, my opinion. Like it or not.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That was, and is, my opinion. Like it or not.

Well, you COULD have said, "Be the squirrel."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

No matter what I would back my partner up!!!

NEVER, NEVER leave your WINGMAN!!!!

I can see in a 8th grade game, MAYBE in a Varsity game, but not @ all in any level NCAA game. ( I don't think this would ever happen @ the High school Varsity or NCAA levels anyway.)

If I eject a coach for a comment they made to a player I'm losing games. It's not nothing @ the DI level to hear coaches dropping the "F" bomb to their players. (Could be defined as vulgar language)

As I said I don't have a problem with tossing this 8th grade coach. Hopefully the officials turned him in and he's done coaching. My part in this discussion was to make sure we were supported in the rule book. Maybe it could be maybe it isn't.

IMO I'm not ejecting a coach for the comment @ the Varsity or NCAA level. I'm "WHACKING," making sure everyone understands why, talking to my partners & playing on.

Gimlet:

I don't know if you have ever officiated college ball (and I have and still do) but for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occassion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones. I will grant you hell will freeze over before a Div. I coach would make that statement that was quoted in the OP, but I personally know some Div. I and II supervisors both, retired and currently supervising, I can assure you if a college head coach said what he said in the OP, and he got tossed, these supervisors would back up the officials. As I said in my earlier post, this kind of conduct should not ever be tolerated and the coach does need to be tossed.

Furthermore I know won Div. I supervisor who take games away from officials who do NOT whack a coach and I believe that this supervisor would have tossed the coach himself if his game official didn't toss him. And supervisor that would take games away from one of officials for tossing a coach in this situation doesn't deserve to be a supervisor and I hope that his officials would revolt against him.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

I don't know if you have ever officiated college ball (and I have and still do) but for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occasion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones. I will grant you hell will freeze over before a Div. I coach would make that statement that was quoted in the OP, but I personally know some Div. I and II supervisors both, retired and currently supervising, I can assure you if a college head coach said what he said in the OP, and he got tossed, these supervisors would back up the officials. As I said in my earlier post, this kind of conduct should not ever be tolerated and the coach does need to be tossed.

Furthermore I know won Div. I supervisor who take games away from officials who do NOT whack a coach and I believe that this supervisor would have tossed the coach himself if his game official didn't toss him. And supervisor that would take games away from one of officials for tossing a coach in this situation doesn't deserve to be a supervisor and I hope that his officials would revolt against him.

MTD, Sr.

Well I think we can agree that this coach would need to be penalized. We will just have to agree to dis agree on how to penalize the comment.

Would my Supervisor ( I do work college basketball) be upset with me if I gave a Bench Technical in reference to the OP? No! In fact I agree that if I didn't I could get reprimanded for not doing it. Would my Supervisor dis agree with a Flagrant "T" on a comment to a player like the OP...maybe, maybe not. Either way I'm still penalizing the coach and turning it over to the supervisor.

I know for sure with the Bench Technical I'm covered by the rules. The Flagrant "T" I'm not so sure. If I'm tossing player/coach I'm making damn sure that I'm rule supported. This was the main reason for my reference to losing games by kicking a rule administration. (Rule administration being extremely important @ the NCAA level) Has nothing to do if the supervisor would back me or not.

BTW...for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occasion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones.

When has the NCAA said this? Was it in a bulletin, regional clinic, or the rule book? I haven't seen the bulletin, I have been to the last few regional clinics& I can't find the reference in the rule book.

I can however see game management reminding the teams if it is a TV game. Come to think of it, you really don't see camera's inside the huddle to often, primarily because they are going to commercial to pay the bills. In fact most feeds are on a delay which helps prevent such things.

Let me reemphasize that this IMHO!!!!

[just another ref]

Perhaps I am naive, or have a warped sense of things, but I tend to think that if I had heard a coach make the remark in the OP, the extreme nature of the remark would have caused me to believe that it was certainly not meant to be taken literally. Was the push that he refers to called a foul? If not, I would have thought that what he said was for the officials benefit. Anyhow, I think players at pretty much any level would know that they were not really supposed to punch an opponent in the mouth. I think that it might be more potentially dangerous if a coach was heard to instruct a player to "Use your elbows! That will keep him off of you when he starts that pushing again?" A T in this situation? I have no problem with that. Flagrant? I say probably not.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Anyhow, I think players at pretty much any level would know that they were not really supposed to punch an opponent in the mouth.

I would think that if an 8th grade girl had this yelled at her by her coach she most definitely would take it seriously. In fact, the younger the kid, the more likely they would take it just the way the coach said it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I would think that if an 8th grade girl had this yelled at her by her coach she most definitely would take it seriously. In fact, the younger the kid, the more likely they would take it just the way the coach said it.

Did anything notable happen after the guy got tossed? Did anybody punch anybody, or do anything unusually rough?