help with 3 man rotation

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Uh...no.

Where did you hear that C has division line responsibility and Lead has everything in the lane? Assuming you are not confused, locate the person who told you that and mark them down as someone you don't listen to anymore.

Doesn't the C have half the paint?

YES AND YES! Yeah you can't cut it that cleanly 60/40, that is why I said get a manual and a diagram...

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by kbilla

YES AND YES! Yeah you can't cut it that cleanly 60/40, that is why I said get a manual and a diagram...

You also told him the Lead has the entire paint. No wonder you are making calls across the lane. Do you have a manual?

If you want to get into backside help then yeah the Lead can make that call. However, I would be you $100 bucks that if you are really worried about this enough to use that as a reason to tell someone new to this system that it could be a reason to call across the paint...you probably watch the ball.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You also told him the Lead has the entire paint. No wonder you are making calls across the lane. Do you have a manual?

If you want to get into backside help then yeah the Lead can make that call. However, I would be you $100 bucks that if you are really worried about this enough to use that as a reason to tell someone new to this system that it could be a reason to call across the paint...you probably watch the ball.

I said no such thing, truerookie said that! Come on at least quote me correctly!

Are you telling me you do not make a single call across the lane in any of your games? I basically agreed with you with the caveat that when the ball comes down the lane as L it's not like you intentionally look the other way...that is how you make it sound...as L you are GOING to see the play coming at you, otherwise why would the NCAA mechanic/coverage be that L has the action going to the hoop regardless of which side it comes from? So being that you are GOING to see the action (unless you are suggesting that he intentionally look away), you have two choices if you see what you deem to be a foul 1) decide that C had the best look at it and passed, therefore you should pass or 2) decide that it is an obvious foul that C did not get and come in and get it.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I said no such thing, truerookie said that! Come on at least quote me correctly!

Are you telling me you do not make a single call across the lane in any of your games? I basically agreed with you with the caveat that when the ball comes down the lane as L it's not like you intentionally look the other way...that is how you make it sound...as L you are GOING to see the play coming at you, otherwise why would the NCAA mechanic/coverage be that L has the action going to the hoop regardless of which side it comes from? So being that you are GOING to see the action (unless you are suggesting that he intentionally look away), you have two choices if you see what you deem to be a foul 1) decide that C had the best look at it and passed, therefore you should pass or 2) decide that it is an obvious foul that C did not get and come in and get it.

I apologize for quoting you when it was Truerookie.

Who told you that it is a NCAA mechanic that the Lead has action going to the hoop from either side? It seems like I have to say this locally all the time: there will be normal, average, happens all the time, drives from the C's side of the court and the C should take these. I have never heard of an NCAA mechanic where the Lead has every drive.
To answer your other question, in most of my games I do NOT call across the paint. I would call across the paint for the following reasons:

1. A non-basketball play
2. A play on the backside (from the C) where the C has no physical way of seeing the contact.
3. If there is a quick steal and the C may or may not be in position.
4. An obviously missed call by the C like a block/charge with no whistle.

If those situations do not occur in a game I do not call across the paint. Also keep in mind IMO a double whistle that is clearly in the C's primary and NOT in the dual coverage area is not a good double whistle. If I had a whistle on the backside or an obvious call that was missed it would be delayed and would not be at the same time as the C.

***We have talked about absolutes on the board several times. I'm not saying that what I posted above is absolute BUT this is what I plan for because this is what happens most of the time. I feel (very strongly) that if an official plans to call across the paint, that official WILL call across the paint when it isn't correct.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I apologize for quoting you when it was Truerookie.

Who told you that it is a NCAA mechanic that the Lead has action going to the hoop from either side?

This is specifically called out in the men's manual (unless I really misinterpreted this)...not saying that everyone actually practices this, the juco game I had on Sat, no one else was comfortable calling this way so we just went with NF in this regard..but regardless of how it is practiced, if they put it in the manual there must at least be some justification - we must be able to assume that the L can at least SEE the play....that said, like I said basically I agree with you, there should not be many calls across the lane. ESPECIALLY blocks/fouls involving "body" contact, C has the best look at those and nothing irks me more than watching a play from my primary as C develop and I follow it all the way in and there is a little body contact with no advantage and L reaches over and calls a block...but the things that L can help with are the holds, smacks, things that happen in front of A1 that C could possibly get straightlined from...if you see those happen as L, I welcome the help as C...my whole point was just to let this person know that while you shouldn't be looking for fouls over there, that doesn't mean that you look the other way either...

[tomegun]

I had a NAIA game on Saturday and my partner told us something I've never heard before. He said for us all to go out, draw a box and call in that box. It was his way of saying stay in your primary. I think his philosophy is good enough for Dale Kelly.
I'm busy with some other stuff to look, so can you tell me where it says to look at drives in your manual?

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I said no such thing, truerookie said that! Come on at least quote me correctly!

Are you telling me you do not make a single call across the lane in any of your games? I basically agreed with you with the caveat that when the ball comes down the lane as L it's not like you intentionally look the other way...that is how you make it sound...as L you are GOING to see the play coming at you, otherwise why would the NCAA mechanic/coverage be that L has the action going to the hoop regardless of which side it comes from? So being that you are GOING to see the action (unless you are suggesting that he intentionally look away), you have two choices if you see what you deem to be a foul 1) decide that C had the best look at it and passed, therefore you should pass or 2) decide that it is an obvious foul that C did not get and come in and get it.

No it doesn't.

The drive belongs to whoever had the start of the drive. Lead has help defenders and is recommended to be at close down to ASSIST the C on drives from that side. The womens side calls it pinching the paint and wants lead to step down and back with one foot in the quicksand to HELP but it isn't leads primary call.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

No it doesn't.

The drive belongs to whoever had the start of the drive. Lead has help defenders and is recommended to be at close down to ASSIST the C on drives from that side. The womens side calls it pinching the paint and wants lead to step down and back with one foot in the quicksand to HELP but it isn't leads primary call.

Then this 07-08 CCA men's manual that I am looking at is either crazy or poorly written, because there is a mechanics change in here for this year that states that "primary responsibility for block/charge calls inside the lane that are going to the basket reside with the lead official". There is then an illustration on page 23 for anyone who has the book...in the illustration the dribbler gets past the primary defender on a drive and collides with a secondary defender in the lane...it states that "the lead will have primary responsibility since the contact occurs in the lane area and will signal a foul resulting in a block or charge". Now it is true that in this example the contact occurs in the L's primary, but the drive came out of T's primary it appears in the diagram and they are still calling it L's responsibility..additionally, nowhere does it say that the L will only have primary responsibility for contact in the lane "in C's primary" which leads me to believe that this would be the same if the contact occurred on the other side of the lane...anybody else have a different interpretation fo this?

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Then this 07-08 CCA men's manual that I am looking at is either crazy or poorly written, because there is a mechanics change in here for this year that states that "primary responsibility for block/charge calls inside the lane that are going to the basket reside with the lead official". There is then an illustration on page 23 for anyone who has the book...in the illustration the dribbler gets past the primary defender on a drive and collides with a secondary defender in the lane...it states that "the lead will have primary responsibility since the contact occurs in the lane area and will signal a foul resulting in a block or charge". Now it is true that in this example the contact occurs in the L's primary, but the drive came out of T's primary it appears in the diagram and they are still calling it L's responsibility..additionally, nowhere does it say that the L will only have primary responsibility for contact in the lane "in C's primary" which leads me to believe that this would be the same if the contact occurred on the other side of the lane...anybody else have a different interpretation fo this?

You should be strong-side on drives to the hole a large majority of the time. If you are not, you are not getting ball-side nearly enough. Therefore, it should be somewhat rare when a player drives all the way to the hole from the weak-side, which should be handled by the C. On the strong-side, L should be getting the block/charge. The reason for the change is two-fold. First, a large majority of those block/charge calls occur due to secondary defenders, which is an L primary responsibility. The other reason is optics/perception: it looks better to everyone and is perceived as better when the lead makes that call, due to the proximity to the play. And yeah, I'm waiting for Captain Literal to say the same as when the drive comes from the C side, but read the first two lines of this.

To the OP: Get ball side when possible. If the ball is over there, and there are other players there too, get over, because the C cannot take the ball matchup and anyone else.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

You should be strong-side on drives to the hole a large majority of the time. If you are not, you are not getting ball-side nearly enough. Therefore, it should be somewhat rare when a player drives all the way to the hole from the weak-side, which should be handled by the C. On the strong-side, L should be getting the block/charge. The reason for the change is two-fold. First, a large majority of those block/charge calls occur due to secondary defenders, which is an L primary responsibility. The other reason is optics/perception: it looks better to everyone and is perceived as better when the lead makes that call, due to the proximity to the play. And yeah, I'm waiting for Captain Literal to say the same as when the drive comes from the C side, but read the first two lines of this.

To the OP: Get ball side when possible. If the ball is over there, and there are other players there too, get over, because the C cannot take the ball matchup and anyone else.

OK, but it IS a mechanics change right? That was my point that some others were disputing...my whole thing in all of this was just to make the point that when you are L and the action is coming from the opposite side, don't bail out on it, don't give up on it just b/c it isn't your primary. I agree with others that L should not be reaching across frequently, if he is, then he needs to get his behind over there more....but get wide as L and you can see everything going on, that way you are able to lend help to C on the rare occassion that you haven't rotated and he/she misses one...

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Then this 07-08 CCA men's manual that I am looking at is either crazy or poorly written, because there is a mechanics change in here for this year that states that "primary responsibility for block/charge calls inside the lane that are going to the basket reside with the lead official". There is then an illustration on page 23 for anyone who has the book...in the illustration the dribbler gets past the primary defender on a drive and collides with a secondary defender in the lane...it states that "the lead will have primary responsibility since the contact occurs in the lane area and will signal a foul resulting in a block or charge". Now it is true that in this example the contact occurs in the L's primary, but the drive came out of T's primary it appears in the diagram and they are still calling it L's responsibility..additionally, nowhere does it say that the L will only have primary responsibility for contact in the lane "in C's primary" which leads me to believe that this would be the same if the contact occurred on the other side of the lane...anybody else have a different interpretation fo this?

This is correct the lead picks up the secondary defender.

[Cleefy]

Would 3 man in NCAA be anything like FIBA's three man?

I might have some info that could help if it is.

Cleefy

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

Would 3 man in NCAA be anything like FIBA's three man?

I might have some info that could help if it is.

Cleefy

No idea...

[FrankHtown]

I'm just amazed an assignor would give a 3 person varsity game to someone who it seems is not very familiar with it.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by kbilla

YES AND YES! Yeah you can't cut it that cleanly 60/40, that is why I said get a manual and a diagram...

I think I see the confusion, this post was meant to mean "YES I AGREE WITH YOUR FIRST POINT" and "YES I AGREE WITH YOUR SECOND POINT"....