did we get this right-mutifouls question

[jdw3018]

It appears you handled it correctly - except that the way you have worded it a disqualified player (A1) attempted his free throws. A1 and B1 should have been disqualified immediately, and then A1's substitute should have attempted the free throws.

[stewcall]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

It appears you handled it correctly - except that the way you have worded it a disqualified player (A1) attempted his free throws. A1 and B1 should have been disqualified immediately, and then A1's substitute should have attempted the free throws.

Actually A1 replacement did shoot the foul
thanks
stew in Va

[Back In The Saddle]

The fighting fouls comprise a double flagrant technical, and the penalty would be DQ and POI, which I believe because of the succeeding foul calls would be A throw-in at midcourt.

All double personal fouls and double technical fouls are POI, which would only involve the AP arrow if there were no clear team control.

Edited to correct for my complete inability to read

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The fighting fouls comprise a double flagrant technical, and the penalty would be DQ and POI, which I believe because of the succeeding foul calls would be A throw-in at midcourt.

All double personal fouls and double technical fouls are POI, which would only involve the AP arrow if there were no clear team control.

Edited to correct for my complete inability to read

Not precisely right, but close enough as the administration is correct.
Strictly speaking in this case the POI is the awarding of the first of the two FTs that are due to A1's substitute because of the personal foul by B1.

Since a team is entitled to a FT, per 4-36-2b the game is picked up from there and then the rest of the fouls are penalized in order. As the final foul to be penalized is the intentional technical foul (for the dead ball contact) by B1, Team A will be awarded a throw-in at the division line following those FTs.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not precisely right, but close enough as the administration is correct.
Strictly speaking in this case the POI is the awarding of the first of the two FTs that are due to A1's substitute because of the personal foul by B1.

Since a team is entitled to a FT, per 4-36-2b the game is picked up from there and then the rest of the fouls are penalized in order. As the final foul to be penalized is the intentional technical foul (for the dead ball contact) by B1, Team A will be awarded a throw-in at the division line following those FTs.

I can't make heads or tails out of this explanation, Nevada? Could you please spell it out in more detail? Are you talking about Fed? I don't get you at all!

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I can't make heads or tails out of this explanation, Nevada? Could you please spell it out in more detail? Are you talking about Fed? I don't get you at all!

All he's saying is that the POI isn't the half-court throw-in, but actually the administration of the free-throws. It doesn't change anything about the process, but knowing what POI really means and how it's applied can make a difference.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not precisely right, but close enough as the administration is correct.
Strictly speaking in this case the POI is the awarding of the first of the two FTs that are due to A1's substitute because of the personal foul by B1.

Since a team is entitled to a FT, per 4-36-2b the game is picked up from there and then the rest of the fouls are penalized in order. As the final foul to be penalized is the intentional technical foul (for the dead ball contact) by B1, Team A will be awarded a throw-in at the division line following those FTs.

The problem I see with this is order of enforcement. 8-7 tells us, without exception, that "Penalties for fouls are administered in the order in which the fouls occurred."

So the administration of the fighting T's does not occur until after that for the personal foul and the first technical. There are rules that tell us we must replace the DQ'd players before proceeding with the first free throw. But that does not constitute administering the penalty for the double T.

4-36-2b is the proper POI option for this situation.

b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such.

But when considered in concert with 8-7, that leaves the concluding phrase of 4-36-2b as the simplest possibility. At this point the only activity remaining is the throw-in due to the first technical, and team A "is entitled to such."

I think that makes more sense that saying that the POI was (emphasis on the past-tenseness of this argument) a few free throws ago. I can think of no other situation in which we would deem the POI to be a time that occurred previously in the game.

In the end, you are right that the end result is the same.

I've got to run and can't immediately think of any other cases that would be useful in thinking about this. If you've got one, I'd like to hear it.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I've got to run and can't immediately think of any other cases that would be useful in thinking about this. If you've got one, I'd like to hear it.

A1 is fouled and A is in the double bonus. After the play, A2 and B2 fight. Proper administration?

A2 and B2 are charged with flagrant technicals and disqualified. Then the game proceeds with A1 shooting the double bonus with players on the lane.

If we waited until after the fouls were administered in order to apply POI, we'd clear the lane and then have a POI after the 2nd free throw.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

A1 is fouled and A is in the double bonus. After the play, A2 and B2 fight. Proper administration?

A2 and B2 are charged with flagrant technicals and disqualified. Then the game proceeds with A1 shooting the double bonus with players on the lane.

If we waited until after the fouls were administered in order to apply POI, we'd clear the lane and then have a POI after the 2nd free throw.

If you read 4-36-2 the way I've been reading it, there is no resolution for POI in this situation. They would need to add in something about playing on after a made or missed free throw, or something like that to cover this situation.

However, setting that aside for the moment, I don't agree that you'd shoot the free throws with the lane cleared. Whether or not to clear the lane (NFHS 8-1-3) is always a forward looking decision, based on whether the ball will be dead after shooting the free throws. There is nothing in the penalty for a double technical that makes the ball dead. Logically, if not exactly by rule, the POI would be to carry on from the end of the free throws.

I can see the disconnect in the rules over this. What changes would fix this?

• Nevada suggested ammending 8-7 to except double fouls and double technicals.
• I would prefer adding a fourth provision to 4-36-2 that says something like: For double personal or double technical fouls, when there are other personal and/or technical fouls involved, enforce all other penalties, in the order the fouls occurred, as if the double personal/technical had not occurred.
• Perhaps 8-6 would need a little tweaking as well?

Any others?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

The problem I see with this is order of enforcement. 8-7 tells us, without exception, that "Penalties for fouls are administered in the order in which the fouls occurred."

You hit upon a good point. One which the Fed has yet to realize. When they changed the penalty for double/simultaneous fouls and added the POI definition back in 2005-06, they failed to also alter 8-7.
8-7 needs to be amended to contain, "except for double and simultaneous fouls."

The fact is that in order to properly enforce the POI rule, we must ignore 8-7 in these situations. Post #12 by jdw demonstrates why.

PS rainmaker, yes, I am talking about NFHS rules. The real POI is how we make the ball live again.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

PS rainmaker, yes, I am talking about NFHS rules. The real POI is how we make the ball live again.

So why wouldn't the POI be the inbound at the midcourt line for the T against B? I don't understand why you said the admin was right but the reason was wrong.

[JS 20]

So if you go in order:

1) shoot the double bonus w/ A1's sub

2) shoot the two T's w/ any member from A

3) double technical would then go to the AP to see who got the ball at midcourt. Would that be right???

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by JS 20

So if you go in order:

1) shoot the double bonus w/ A1's sub

2) shoot the two T's w/ any member from A

3) double technical would then go to the AP to see who got the ball at midcourt. Would that be right???

A double technical is POI. So would only go to the arrow if we're unclear who should have possession of the ball. In this case, I believe A gets the ball for a midcourt throw-in as a result of the first T.