double foul?

[jr]

fed rules...

a1 gets fouled by b1 in the act of shooting...at approximately the same time, but after the whistle for the foul by b1, a2 fouls b2 under the basket in a non-flagrant manner...b2 is not in the bonus...

what do you have?

[JugglingReferee]

I'll take a stab...

False double. A1 shots 1 (or 2 or 3) with the lane clear. B gets possession for a spot throw-in. If A1 makes the last throw, then B is actually disadvantaged in terms of the throw-in restrictions (spot vs. whole endline), but does gain a team foul to A's total.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I'll take a stab...

False double. A1 shots 1 (or 2 or 3) with the lane clear. B gets possession for a spot throw-in. If A1 makes the last throw, then B is actually disadvantaged in terms of the throw-in restrictions (spot vs. whole endline), but does gain a team foul to A's total.

I think this is close. But,

1) It's a false simultaneous foul, not a false double foul, since the fould were not by opponents against each other.

2) If the last FT is good, B gets to run the baseline; if it's not good, B has a spot throw-in.

3) If B is in the bonus, then B shoots FTs with players lined up on the lane.

[Brad]

Technically you are right, but calling two fouls here is, in general, horrendous.

Call the first foul -- the second foul has absolutely no effect on the play.

This is where common-sense trumps rules technicalities every day of the week.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Brad

Technically you are right, but calling two fouls here is, in general, horrendous.

Call the first foul -- the second foul has absolutely no effect on the play.

This is where common-sense trumps rules technicalities every day of the week.

Brad, that may be true. But they're discussing what is the right call to make if you actually do have the 2 fouls called. If the second foul is called, then you have no choice but to go with both of them. You can't ignore it.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Brad, that may be true. But they're discussing what is the right call to make if you actually do have the 2 fouls called. If the second foul is called, then you have no choice but to go with both of them. You can't ignore it.

If you are asking me personally, I would tell my partner that we are going with the first foul and only that foul.

Not everything in officiating should be handled by technicalities -- and when we do, we normally get ourselves in more trouble than we would by administering a good dose of common sense.

I am starting to remember that there's a reason that I only have a few hundred posts on this board

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Brad

Technically you are right, but calling two fouls here is, in general, horrendous.

Call the first foul -- the second foul has absolutely no effect on the play.

This is where common-sense trumps rules technicalities every day of the week.

The second foul may not have had an effect but it may have already been in progress when the first whistle was blow....and have been "rough play" as two big guys were fighting for the anticipated rebounding position. You may want to get it just to clean up the game. Sure, you may want to ignore something like an illegal screen on the opposite site of the court....but I would never say that the 2nd foul should always be ignored.

In my game Saturday, I had TWO fouls on the defense for fouling a teammate of the shooter when the ball went in. Normally, those don't get called.

First one....defender two hand shoves the screener as the shooter releases a three from the corner. Screener, who was just inside the 3 point line, ends up on the floor OOB (several feet back from where he set the screen) as a result of the shove. The basket was good AND the shooting team got the ball back. Not normally recommended but unpassable. Can't let anyone think they can get away with a shove like that...just not happening.

Second one...shots is rolling on the rim, defender (in a less favorable rebounding position) throws a hard elbow into the back of a teammate of the shooter. It was ugly. The ball dropped in. I could have passed, but what was going to happen next trip, or at the other end? It was getting rougher than I wanted it to get.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think this is close. But,

1) It's a false simultaneous foul, not a false double foul, since the fould were not by opponents against each other.

2) If the last FT is good, B gets to run the baseline; if it's not good, B has a spot throw-in.

3) If B is in the bonus, then B shoots FTs with players lined up on the lane.

Bob, something didn't quite ring right with the term "false simultaneous foul" and I searched the NF rulebook and the term doesn't come up at all...is this an actual term or are you just extrapolating the "false double foul" definition?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Bob, something didn't quite ring right with the term "false simultaneous foul" and I searched the NF rulebook and the term doesn't come up at all...is this an actual term or are you just extrapolating the "false double foul" definition?

4-19-15.

It's written in white ink on a white page and basically says "If you'd get your head out of your ***, you'd see that 4-19-9 applies."

[Adam]

This is going to depend.

If A1's shot wasn't released prior to A2's foul, then the basket will not count even if made. A1 will shoot two free throws (or three if it was behind the arc), B will then get the ball at the spot nearest the foul by A2.

If A1's shot was released prior to the foul, then the basket will count if made and free throws for A1 will be determined accordingly and B will get the ball OOB at the spot nearest the foul by A2: unless….

If A1's try actually ended (such as not really getting the shot off) prior to A2's foul, in which case A2's foul should be ignored as dead-ball contact.

[jr]

i wasn't there...but i was told that: (in order)

the ball was released
the whistle for the foul on b1
the whistle for the foul on a2
missed attempt

the officials made an incorrect ruling...i'll let you know abou that later...

let's think about this...what if b was in the bonus?

[Adam]

A1 gets his free throws, then B2 gets his with the players lined up.

Let me guess, they cancelled the free throws and went with the arrow.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by jr

fed rules...

a1 gets fouled by b1 in the act of shooting...at approximately the same time, but after the whistle for the foul by b1, a2 fouls b2 under the basket in a non-flagrant manner...b2 is not in the bonus...

what do you have?

How can this be a double foul?

The whistle for the foul on A1 causes everything after that to be either incidental or a technical. Unless the foul on A2 was intentional, it should be considered incidental contact.

A1 shoots two shots... Contact by B2 is ignored (unless ruled intentional / flagrant -- then it would be a technical foul). Play on.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Brad

How can this be a double foul?

The whistle for the foul on A1 causes everything after that to be either incidental or a technical. Unless the foul on A2 was intentional, it should be considered incidental contact.

A1 shoots two shots... Contact by B2 is ignored (unless ruled intentional / flagrant -- then it would be a technical foul). Play on.

The foul committed against A1 does not cause the ball to become dead immediately, if it did then how could you score the goal if A1's shot went in? This is a false double....agree w/ Snaqs/JR on how to handle...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Brad

How can this be a double foul?

The whistle for the foul on A1 causes everything after that to be either incidental or a technical. Unless the foul on A2 was intentional, it should be considered incidental contact.

A1 shoots two shots... Contact by B2 is ignored (unless ruled intentional / flagrant -- then it would be a technical foul). Play on.

Not true. If A1 was in the act of shooting, the ball is not dead on the foul committed on A1. Any contact until the ball becomes dead is called as per the usual criteria.

Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored if not intentional or flagrant.