Double foul

CLAY · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 10:53am

I am in my 8th year and have a pretty good understanding of the rules. I was working with a certified official on a girls varsity contest. He had made a double foul call on the two post players the ball was live at the top of the key. Since the rule change, and correct me if I am wrong, but the call should have been the ball goes back to offense and the poss arrow does not change.

He made the call looked at the poss arrow which was pointed to the offense gave the ball to the offense and changed the arrow. I told him that was not the correct call. He response to me was. I was wrong and when I become a certified official i would have a better understanding of the rules. Now I am standing next to the head coach for the team in control of the ball listening to him yell at me for not knowing the rules. Like a good official I covered for my partner who I knew was wrong. I tried to talk to him about this at halftime, but he just walked away. It made for a interesting second half and a cold shoulder after the game.

What is the correct call.. Now this guy has me second quessing myself.

Any suggestion on how to handle this in the future?

lukealex · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 11:13am

You are correct, possession is now POI, which in your case goes back to the offense. As for dealing with the partner, talking to him about the call was a good thing to do. Mention the rule change, but don't just say you're wrong. Since he would not change the call and doesn't know the rule, he may not be the senior official you think he is.

Jurassic Referee · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 11:20am

You had the right call- R4-36.

Next time, just do what you did. Bring it to the calling official's attention- where nobody can overhear your conversation. If he doesn't want to change his call, then there's nuthin' that you can do about it. If the coach *****es, just nod your head to acknowledge that you hear him but don't say a word. If the coach wants an explanation, tell him that you'll get your partner to give him one. After the game, don't bother getting into it with the guy. Just get outa there. Make sure that you report him to your assignor/commissioner however. Guys like him gotta be straightened out. They're dangerous to all of us.

rockyroad · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 11:26am

It's interesting reading all of these type of posts recently...the "older" or "more experienced" or "veteran" official is always such an a-hole when the "younger" or "not certified" official runs in and tells him/her "Hey, you're wrong"...as one of those "older" (altho certainly not as old as SOME people on this board), "more experienced veteran" officials, let me give some advice to some of our younger compatriots - if you come running in and tell anyone "You're wrong", than that person is going to get defensive...the way to avoid these situations is to work on your delivery - talk to the partner the way you would like to be talked to..."Hey partner. can we discuss this one for a second. Isn't it a new rule this year that double fouls go to POI?" Make it a question rather than an accusation and see if maybe - just maybe - us a-hole older, more experienced, certified officials will start listening a little bit more...

OK, off my soap box. Yes you were right and partner was wrong...learn from the situation and try to handle it differently from now on...

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 11:33am

You are correct.

The guy is an idiot.

If you have an assignor, make him aware of your partner's mistake AND his unwillingness to listen to you.

If your partner takes offense to you pursing the issue, SCREW HIM.

rainmaker · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 11:43am

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
It's interesting reading all of these type of posts recently...the "older" or "more experienced" or "veteran" official is always such an a-hole when the "younger" or "not certified" official runs in and tells him/her "Hey, you're wrong"...as one of those "older" (altho certainly not as old as SOME people on this board), "more experienced veteran" officials, let me give some advice to some of our younger compatriots - if you come running in and tell anyone "You're wrong", than that person is going to get defensive...the way to avoid these situations is to work on your delivery - talk to the partner the way you would like to be talked to..."Hey partner. can we discuss this one for a second. Isn't it a new rule this year that double fouls go to POI?" Make it a question rather than an accusation and see if maybe - just maybe - us a-hole older, more experienced, certified officials will start listening a little bit more...

OK, off my soap box. Yes you were right and partner was wrong...learn from the situation and try to handle it differently from now on...

You're right about how to handle it, but my guess is that younger officials aren't as awful as it might look. Only the problem situations get posted here.

Or are you saying that you've been corrected by a newbie recently, and it didn't feel so great?

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 12:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

[/B]

Or are you saying that you've been corrected by a newbie recently, and it didn't feel so great? [/B][/QUOTE]Yup, that's why Rocky got a little short with him.

CLAY · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 12:45pm

Thank you all for your replies...I tried to be respectful to my partner. I did not tell him he was wrong. I approached the situation as a question to him. I told him, in this matter. wasn't this a rule change this year? They discussed it in length at the rules meeting. I understand that if the ball was in flight and you called the double foul then yes you would change the arrow, but not in this case. I hope I handled it correctly. I am just now getting into the Varsity rotation for both boys and girls and I don't need this. I know I will have him again as a partner, next time I hope it's a three person, and we can out vote him.

BayStateRef · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 01:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by CLAY
... I know I will have him again as a partner, next time I hope it's a three person, and we can out vote him.

Did you do a pre-game? It does not sound like you did, because new rules changes are among the first things that should be discussed in a pre-game with any partner, but particularly with a new partner. And that goes double for the first games of the year -- when I make sure we are in agreement on each new rules change.

Having said that, there is no excuse for your partner's behavior. I have had rules disagreements with my partner, but they were always private -- either in the locker room or during a time out. If I had a partner who walked away from me at halftime, I would be sure to ask my assignor to find someone else as my partner next time.

JCrow · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 01:17pm

Clay,

Here's Crow's Theory, men by their nature stay mentally about 17-1/2 all thru their lives. They don't change. Some older men bluff behind a false facade of experience and wisdom from age. Plus, they think that age excuses rudeness, ignorance and a bad attitude.

(For some reason, I find that Golf Course Starters are cut from this mold.)

My advice, never let an old jerk bluff you. Trust me, he was a jerk when he was young too. You vote? Pay taxes? You're as good as he is. I'm 54 and the correct way to respond in this case is to say,

"You might be right...let's check after the game to make sure."

If he's too ignorant and prideful to take this approach, you should be the one that gives him the cold shoulder.

Or, if you're like me.....mail him a copy of the Casebook Example C/0 your Assigner.

rockyroad · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

You're right about how to handle it, but my guess is that younger officials aren't as awful as it might look. Only the problem situations get posted here.

Or are you saying that you've been corrected by a newbie recently, and it didn't feel so great?

Nope...no corrections yet...and you know me well enough to know that I wouldn't respond that way if someone did correct me...however, over the last few weeks there have been a number of "bad older partner" situations posted here, and the common thread has seemed to be that the younger official "tells him he's wrong"...that's never gonna go over well, so thought I would post a little different response than "yep he's wrong so screw him"...

CLAY · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 02:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BayStateRef

Quote:

Originally posted by CLAY
... I know I will have him again as a partner, next time I hope it's a three person, and we can out vote him.

Did you do a pre-game? It does not sound like you did, because new rules changes are among the first things that should be discussed in a pre-game with any partner, but particularly with a new partner. And that goes double for the first games of the year -- when I make sure we are in agreement on each new rules change.

Having said that, there is no excuse for your partner's behavior. I have had rules disagreements with my partner, but they were always private -- either in the locker room or during a time out. If I had a partner who walked away from me at halftime, I would be sure to ask my assignor to find someone else as my partner next time.

Funny you should ask that question...During our pre-game we were talking about double fouls and double false fouls. . I am not a big believer in double fouls since someone had to have the first contact, but that is just my style of officating.
We did not however talk about how we penalize those foul. I assumed that was a given. Shame, Shame ,Shame on me.

eyezen · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Nov 16, 2005, 09:06pm

This question is only posed out of curiosity, nothing more.

You're now in the "varsity" rotation, yet you're not a certified official? In Missouri you would have to be certified by the state to work even a sanctioned JH/MS game much less a varsity game.

So I'm curious what state/league would this be in?

Nevadaref · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 17, 2005, 03:32am

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
It's interesting reading all of these type of posts recently...the "older" or "more experienced" or "veteran" official is always such an a-hole when the "younger" or "not certified" official runs in and tells him/her "Hey, you're wrong"...as one of those "older" (altho certainly not as old as SOME people on this board), "more experienced veteran" officials, let me give some advice to some of our younger compatriots - if you come running in and tell anyone "You're wrong", than that person is going to get defensive...the way to avoid these situations is to work on your delivery - talk to the partner the way you would like to be talked to..."Hey partner. can we discuss this one for a second. Isn't it a new rule this year that double fouls go to POI?" Make it a question rather than an accusation and see if maybe - just maybe - us a-hole older, more experienced, certified officials will start listening a little bit more...

OK, off my soap box. Yes you were right and partner was wrong...learn from the situation and try to handle it differently from now on...

Wouldn't it take care of this problem if those older veteran officials would just get it right in the first place?
If they are sensitive about being corrected than don't be wrong.
Keeping up with the rules should be a lot easier than staying in shape!

bob jenkins · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Nov 17, 2005, 09:01am

Quote:

Originally posted by eyezen
This question is only posed out of curiosity, nothing more.

You're now in the "varsity" rotation, yet you're not a certified official? In Missouri you would have to be certified by the state to work even a sanctioned JH/MS game much less a varsity game.

So I'm curious what state/league would this be in?

According to Clay's profile, he's from IL. In IL, "certified" is a level of official -- officials are either Registered, Recognized or Certified.

Officials must be Licensed (and, thus, at one of the levels above) to work games. Based on your comment, I'm guessing that MO's "Certified" = IL's "Licensed."