delay of game warning or not?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter

This came up a few weeks ago. I was R for the co-rec IM basketball championship game. A1 shot, long rebound, and A2 got a hand on the ball in the air. With no control, he comes down to the ground (so no travel call, although I wish that's what I had called) and starts bobbling the ball. One of the bounces goes off of his leg (leg didn't move), and I called a kick violation (obviously not a kick, but I whistled, froze, and went with the kick).

A3 and A4 - both fellow officials (as is A2 - he didn't say anything) go apesh*t that "there's no such thing as an offensive kick!" (After checking our special rules addendum (to NFHS), I realized that there is a note in our book saying there is no such thing as an offensive kick). I apologized for screwing up our rules, but stood by the fact that a member of team A could have a kick violation. (Technically in the original case, A2 was neither on offense or defense, since team control is lost on a shot.)

I agree that a kick on the "offensive" team is rare. However, I thought up one (and now have a second) example:

(1) A1 throws a long pass to A2, with B1 between the two. With the ball in the air, A3 realizes that B1 will intercept the pass, but A3 cannot reach the ball in time, so A3 kicks the ball to prevent a steal and a fast break.

Violation - A3 gained an illegal advantage in kicking the ball.

(2) A1 is dribbling upcourt. There's heavy pressure, and A1 feels that a pass would be intercepted, so he kicks the ball into the air, over B's heads, to A2 who scores an easy layup.

Violation - it doesn't matter that A has the ball, soccer is the game of feet and legs.

BTW, in this case of the OOB "delay," I say you just start counting when B1 slaps the ball.

I would say that in the league you work you should
not start the count until B1 slaps A1!

I realize that the offensive team can kick, believe it or
not I had one last night. The ball was loose on the floor,
it looked like a rugby scrum, and A1 kicked the ball out
to A2. It's just that Mark D knows where I'm going with
the question and is refusing to answer it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I apologize about not seeing your membership in IAABO. Then I suggest that you talk with your Board interpreter about this rule.

I guess you're not gonna answer the questions.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Slider
And, I missed the one that unambiguously says disposal can begin inbounds.

I wouldn't want you to miss such a play.

6.1.2 SITUATION B: Team A has just scored a goal. The ball is bouncing close to the end line when: (a) A1 calls for a time-out; or (b) A1 contacts B1.
Ruling: In order to rule correctly, it depends on whether the bouncing ball is judged to be at the thrower's disposal. If the covering official judges it is at the thrower's disposal, he/she would start the count and the ball becomes live. In this case, in (a) no time-out is granted and the foul in (b) is penalized. If the ball is not at the thrower's disposal, the time-out is granted in (a) and the contact in (b) is ignored unless it is intentional or flagrant. (4-4-7d)
Comment: In this situation, the covering official must give the new throw-in team a moment or two to recognize it is their ball for a throw-in and get a player into the area to pick up the ball. If the ball is near the end line, it is the throw-in team's responsibility to secure it and throw-in from anywhere out of bounds along the end line. The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined the ball is available.

Clearly, in this play, the ball is bouncing inbounds. The ruleing is clear that if the official judges that the ball is at the thrower's disposal, the count begins and the ball is live. The play says nothing about the need for an official to pick the ball up and place it OOB, as Slider suggests. It's stupid to think that this is required.

BTW, Mr. Knox does not disagree with my interpretation of this play. When a member of the throwing team knocks the ball OOB, it is most definitely at the disposal of the thrower and it is now live. When a player for the throwing team picks the ball up and starts down the floor with it, without first going OOB, he has delayed in allowing the ball to become live.

As I stated earlier, two different situations.

Slider, when you first started posting here, I thought you had some rule smarts. I was wrong.

Here endeth the lesson.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Slider, when you first started posting here, I thought you had some rule smarts. I was wrong.

[/B]

Well,there goes your butt from the "TOP FIVE LIST"!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Well,there goes your butt from the "TOP FIVE LIST"! [/B]

Oh well, such is life.

I can't imagine making anybody's "TOP FIVE LIST" by kissing their butt when they're wrong.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Oh well, such is life.

I can't imagine making anybody's "TOP FIVE LIST" by kissing their butt when they're wrong. [/B]

Hey, you're in my top 5 list, and since I've never been
wrong...

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
... since I've never been wrong...

Good! because I have no desire to kiss your butt!!

[Slider]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Clearly, in this play, the ball is bouncing inbounds... BTW, Mr. Knox does not disagree with my interpretation of this play. When a member of the throwing team knocks the ball OOB, it is most definitely at the disposal of the thrower and it is now live.

Of course Mr. Knox doesn't disagree, because you have misrepresented the situation:

Please ask Mr. Knox whether a ball IB is at disposal. I would love to get an e-mail from him on this matter.

And, the case book play says near the end-line, but it does not say IB, is that UNAMBIGUOUS?.

The reason this has gone on 5 pages is that certain posters continue to repeat the same things over and over; and they (except Padgett) refuse to answer basic questions like: Isn't it a violation to carry a live ball OOB?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Slider
The reason this has gone on 5 pages is that certain posters continue to repeat the same things over and over; and they (except Padgett) refuse to answer basic questions like: Isn't it a violation to carry a live ball OOB? [/B]

On a free throw,you have a live ball that is IB.The rules then state the restrictions that you are under-i.e.don't step over the line,10 seconds to shoot,stay in the semi-circle,don't kick the ball at the basket(that one's for Dan)etc.If it doesn't list a restriction,then you can legally do it.You can stand on your head to shoot,have unlimited foot movement-anything that you want to do,as long as it's not specifically listed as a violation or isn't unsportsmanlike.The probable reason that nobody ever listed that carrying a live ball OB is legal is that nobody thought it was necessary to do so until you came along.It was assumed-just like the cases above.Have you contacted your rules interpreter about this play?Seems to me that would be the logical thing to do.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Slider, I have a rules question for you.

Team A scores a field goal and is now trailing Team B by two points. The ball goes through the net and lands on the floor inbounds. The balls bounces up and down, with its height after each bounce following a damped sinusoidal curve, but that is besides the point, inbounds. Team B makes no attempt to pick up the ball and take it out-of-bounds for a throw-in. There is only ten seconds left in the game. You are the Trail official. Do you start a five second count because the ball is now at Team B's disposal for a throw-in?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Dan_ref, I am not sure what your question is, but I will defend my position vigorusly, because it is the correct position. I am sorry if my "take no prisnors style" offends some people. I study the rules, casebook plays, read as much in not all of the literature available, attend seminars given by some of the muckity mucks, and have made freinds with some of the muckity mucks. I think that my logic and defense of my positions stand for themselves and sound in rules, logic, and common sense (when appropriate).

I and the when appropriate to the common sense requirement, because all to often officials who are not (and all officials should be) rules proficient find themselves in a position where they do not know the applicable rule or do not understand the whys and hows of the rule so they use "common sense" and this gets them in even more trouble. Common sense has its place in officiating, but it does not substitute for rules knowledge.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Dang, I cannot type. The start of my last paragraph in my last post should read as follows:

I add the "when appropriate" to the common...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Dang, I cannot type. The start of my last paragraph in my last post should read as follows:

I add the "when appropriate" to the common...

Don't worry about your typing Mark. Your real problems are
that you engage in debate without listening to the other
side and that your primary tactic is proof by vigorous
assertion (which does not mean you have a "take no
prisoners" style, it just means you continue to say the
same things over & over, in a loud voice). Here are the
questions, copied directly from our exchange last night:

Why don't the NFHS rules specify warning for delay after a
made basket for the scoring team only?

Is it possible for a member of the team in control of the
ball (the offensive team) to violate by kicking?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Slider

The reason this has gone on 5 pages is that certain posters continue to repeat the same things over and over; and they (except Padgett) refuse to answer basic questions

Uh-oh. Slider likes me. I must have gone over to the dark side

JUST KIDDING, SLIDER!!!!!

[Slider]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
You are the Trail official. Do you start a five second count because the ball is now at Team B's disposal for a throw-in?

No, because it is not at disposal for throw-in. If B does not pick it up and take it OOB immediately, I give the stop signal (stop the clock); put the ball on the endline OOB and start my count -- the clock is stopped so B did a very dumb thing.

I will also resond to Jurassic here; none of ways of putting the ball at disposal mention OB (we can ignore FTs, different animal), it is just assumed in 4-4-7 that it will be OOB. That is what is missing from 4-4-7, the clarification that disposal on throw-in has to be OOB.

Now, Mark, please answer my question: Is it not a violation for a player to carry a live ball OOB?