delay of game warning or not?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Slider

I must be losing it, because I don't see IB mentioned anywhere in this case 6.1.2B

As for the delay T, that would be more along the lines of 10-1-5b (there is no warning for that).

But, all that is besides the point, how do you let the thrower touch a live ball IB, and then take it OOB, isn't that some kind of violation?

Also, say the ball goes through the bucket on B2's shot, A1 and B1 are near by. Official sees disposal, starts count, live ball, B1 beats A1 to ball and scores bucket, what is your call?

1)CB6-1-2b states that the ball is bouncing close to the end line,and if the covering official judges that it is at the thrower's disposal,they start the count and the ball becomes alive.Very straightforward-you now have a live ball IB,n'est-ce-pas?
2)-RE:delay T--the team has 5 seconds to throw the ball IB from the time it is at their disposal.The comment in CB6-1-2b covers the exact situation.If they want to run 5 seconds off the clock,they can legally do so.It's simply a violation after 5 seconds.If the quarter ends in that 5-second span,they haven't violated any rule.How can you T them?
3)If there is no confusion on the play where B1 scores again,IMO,I'd call a T-using the principles of CB10-1-8.This is a completely different play than the one we are discussing,though.I don't think it's relevant at all.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee CB6-1-2b states that the ball is bouncing close to the end line,and if the covering official judges that it is at the thrower's disposal,they start the count and the ball becomes alive.Very straightforward-you now have a live ball IB,n'est-ce-pas?

Perhaps they mean close to endline, but OOB, eh?

Check the Simplified & Illustrated 6-1-2b(2), doesn't it seem odd that they put the ball OOB before saying it was at disposal?

[Edited by Slider on Feb 10th, 2002 at 11:02 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Slider

How do you reconcile that with your support for [Dick Knox's] interpretation (delay warning) for a player who never goes OOB for a throw-in?

Because we're talking about two completely different situations. Other than that, Padgett and Jurassic Ref have bent over backwards trying to explain this to you, I don't plan to waste my time repeating what they've already said.

[Slider]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Because we're talking about two completely different situations.

Of course, you are right.

Ball falls down straight from net, I pass it up court.

Ball falls down straight from net, I bat it up court.

Completely different, my mistake.

[BktBallRef]

Good! Glad you finally got it straight.

BTW, where did you read that he batted "it up court?"

Nevermind.

[Slider]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
BTW, where did you read that he batted "it up court?"

So, are you saying we need to rule differently based on which way the bat goes? What is the proper bat "angle" that starts the throw-in count?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Slider

I must be losing it, because I don't see IB mentioned anywhere in this case 6.1.2B

As for the delay T, that would be more along the lines of 10-1-5b (there is no warning for that).

But, all that is besides the point, how do you let the thrower touch a live ball IB, and then take it OOB, isn't that some kind of violation?

Also, say the ball goes through the bucket on B2's shot, A1 and B1 are near by. Official sees disposal, starts count, live ball, B1 beats A1 to ball and scores bucket, what is your call?

The reference "close to the endline" is taken by me to mean not any further from the endline than a foot or two toward the free throw line or sideline from a spot directly under the basket - in other words, where the ball would normally fall and be for a moment after a made basket. I believe that reference is there to cover the instance when a ball goes through the basket, then, still untouched, bounces away from the basket area and/or the endline. We have all seen this happen.

As to your question on what to do if B1 beats A1 to the ball and puts it in the basket - c'mon now, why are you even saying that? I guess it's to emphasize your point about the ball being live. Just because the ball is live, doesn't mean there never are restrictions on who can do what to it. The ball is live when you toss for the opening jump before it is tapped; it's live when held OOB on a throw-in; it's live when at the disposal of the free thrower, etc. All of those situations have restrictions.

BTW - love your signature.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett Just because the ball is live, doesn't mean there never are restrictions on who can do what to it. The ball is live when you toss for the opening jump before it is tapped; it's live when held OOB on a throw-in; it's live when at the disposal of the free thrower, etc. All of those situations have restrictions.

BTW - love your signature.

And there are no restrictions that apply to a ball at disposal while it is still IB on the court (that I am aware of).

Can the defense steal it from the in-bounder before he gets OOB? Can the in-bounder be called for traveling while moving OOB? And, no one has yet answered the question of isn't it a violation to take a live ball OOB?

Why deal with all those unknowns when you can whistle it dead (if it stayed IB after a bat), tell them don't do that again or you get a T, have them take it OOB, then make it live with the known restrictions, and move on.

Again, I encourage you to look at the Simplified & Illustrated 6-1-2b(2) and see that the ball is OOB before they declare it at disposal after a goal. In the 6-1-2b(1) picture when the ball is still in the court after going through the net, they don't consider that the disposal point. Food for thought.

Well, the horse is probably dead now, so I'll quit unless someone says something brilliant.

Thanks for the signature line (guess if I was I nice guy I would have asked you first). Coincidentally stumbled upon that sentence today, and just had to have it -

Slider

[Gochron]

Start the five and let it fall where it may. I don't think a delay is the right call.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Slider
And there are no restrictions that apply to a ball at disposal while it is still IB on the court (that I am aware of).

Yes there is - it's the original rule we're discussing about delay.

Can the defense steal it from the in-bounder before he gets OOB?

No, that's a delay warning

Can the in-bounder be called for traveling while moving OOB?

No - but this is a better question, because he is "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds" so he has player control. I guess this is one of those times the intent and spirit of the rule is different than the letter of the rule.

And, no one has yet answered the question of isn't it a violation to take a live ball OOB?

Same answer on this one.

I must admit what you have done is pointed out the need (once again) for the NF to clean up the language in the rules.

Thanks for the signature line (guess if I was I nice guy I would have asked you first). Coincidentally stumbled upon that sentence today, and just had to have it -

Slider

You're welcome. I notice you are not the only one using former statements of mine as a signature. Maybe I should research the copyright laws and ask for royalties.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
I must admit what you have done is pointed out the need (once again) for the NF to clean up the language in the rules.

Perhaps if they do address the non-OOB throw-in issue, they will change the wording on disposal; I can dream can't I -

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Slider, please listen to what Mark, BktBallRef, and I have been trying to tell you. We know what we are talking about and have quoted rule book and casebook plays that support what we have been telling you.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Slider, please listen to what Mark, BktBallRef, and I have been trying to tell you. We know what we are talking about and have quoted rule book and casebook plays that support what we have been telling you.

Mark T. you really put me in a bind, all 3 of you appear on my top 5 list of gurus, so lets look at the tally (btw, I worked the Florida elections):


For Violation: DeNucci

Neutralized:
BktBallRef (Knox won't support his interp. here)
Padgett (he's about to crumble, I can feel it, and the rest of his resistance is netralized by MY vote)

For Warning: bob jenkins

---------------------

We have a tie!!!!

But wait, we haven't received our vote from "mick" county; what is his opinion?

mick, it is all up to you, you get to play Supreme Court in this debacle.

Sorry to put you on the spot, but we all have to take sides one day. The country awaits your decision.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Lets go back to the basics as we look at this play. A1 beats B1 on a drive to the basket and scores on a layup. B1 is miffed that he got beat by A1 and as A1's field goal attemp is clearing the bottom of the net, B1 slaps the ball in anger instead of grabbing the ball so as to start the throw-in procedure.

If B1 had grabbed the ball and had done any of the following:

1) Stepped directly out-of-bounds (behind the endline) with the ball.

2) Handed or passed the ball to a B2, who was already out-of-bounds (behind the endline).

The ball would have been at the disposal of Team B for a throw-in at the time B1 or B2 had possession of the ball out-of-bounds, and the throw-in would started at that time.

B1 did a stupid thing. His action of slapping the ball indicated to the Trail official that he was starting the throw-in at the moment he slapped the ball. The rules and casebook plays support the starting of the five second count at the time that B1 slapped the ball. In fact this is the only correct procedure. I am not going to quote rules and casebook plays here because I have already done that in one other thread and others have already done that in this thread. But most importantly, this is not a delay of game warning situation for interfering with the ball after a made field goal or free throw. The history behind the inception of this rule has always been that it is a infraction of the rules by the team that had just scored and not by the team who was going to make the throw-in. Any attempt to charge the team making the throwin with an infraction of this rule is wrong.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.


...I am not going to quote rules and casebook plays here because I have already done that in one other thread and others have already done that in this thread. But most importantly, this is not a delay of game warning situation for interfering with the ball after a made field goal or free throw. The history behind the inception of this rule has always been that it is a infraction of the rules by the team that had just scored and not by the team who was going to make the throw-in. Any attempt to charge the team making the throwin with an infraction of this rule is wrong.

Hey Mark, there were so many rules quoted I guess I missed
the NF rule/case play/comics/bulletin/interp that states the delay warning after a made field goal can only apply to
the team who just scored. Thanks.