Coach Issues

[Corndog89]

JR...

Okay

[TheOracle]

CornDog, you are 100% correct. Once "balls" enters the eqaution, escalation is virtually unavoidable. The coach approaching after the game is inexcusable--however, better body language, choice or words, and tone of voice is probably what started the escalation here. You kick a call, it is best to admit it and take your medicine. Unless the whole gym hears a personal insult, you lose face by whacking somebody after you blow a call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As for your larger commentary, for the record I disagree with it. The original poster didn't escalate anything. He stopped the unsporting actions of the Varsity coach.

We really do not know that. All we know is that the official gave a warning; we do not know the tone of voice, the body language or facial expressions that might have been used to get that point across. Look, dealing with coaches is an art. Even if he handled it wonderfully, it does not mean the next officials will have to deal with the same behavior. Coaches react for all kinds of reasons and it does not matter what the other official did that perpetuates that. This coach was just a jerk and if he could not handle an official putting him into his place, he might go up against another official that is not worried about what he thinks and will report him appropriately. I know I do not officiate for the next guy. I officiate for myself and the crew that is on the game. I cannot take responsibility for what that coach does with other people. A coach might be a jerk to me and a nice guy to everyone else.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

CornDog, you are 100% correct. Once "balls" enters the eqaution, escalation is virtually unavoidable. The coach approaching after the game is inexcusable--however, better body language, choice or words, and tone of voice is probably what started the escalation here. You kick a call, it is best to admit it and take your medicine. Unless the whole gym hears a personal insult, you lose face by whacking somebody after you blow a call.

You have absolutely no basis for making this judgment. None.

[rockyroad]

I'm confused as to why people keep referring to the Op'er as "escalating" the situation. He handled bench personnel who were yelling at him, and then there is nothing else said about any more problems with that bench. Seems to me that he got the point across and the bench stopped yelling. The next time the situation was brought up was when the idiot coach confronted the official in the hallway outside the locker room. How-in-the-hell can you people blame the official for the coach being an a$$???

And before anyone asks, yes I would (and have) dealt with the Varsity coach sitting on the bench during a sub-varsity game and yelling at me or my crew - and I've dealt with them in much the same way as the OP did...to sit and say "Well it must have been his tone of voice or body language that caused that coach to confront him in the hallway later" is absoulutely idiotic. Or pusillanimous maybe...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

You kick a call, it is best to admit it and take your medicine. Unless the whole gym hears a personal insult, you lose face by whacking somebody after you blow a call.

Whacking somebody is a situation unto itself. Doesn't matter how many calls you blew before, it is nobody's job on that bench to have commentary about them, especially if they were straightened out properly, as in this case. If somebody needs to be whacked, whack 'em, whether it be before or after any other call.

[Adam]

To add to what JAR just said, it's not about losing or saving face. Seems rather selfish to me. If the coach earns a T, even if it's quietly, give it to him and move on with the game. We all have IWs, and yet we rarely have a coach turn into coach Kreshewewski over it.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Go back to the start of the confrontation...you started it when you dorked up with the IW. Not a major mistake and one easily corrected, but it was your mistake to start with (and we've all done similar "DOH's"). When the V coach started yelling that you had proceeded incorrectly (incorrectly, BTW) you had a choice to make and it sounds like you reacted defensively.

It doesn't sound like that to me. It sounds like he knew he was right, and he acted in accordance with the situation that the so-called V coach escalated.

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Technically you were correct, but, IMO, you escalated the situation by immediately telling the V coach "You're wrong" and then directing the frosh coach to shut up his "assistant" and keep him in line.

Ichi may have used the phrase "I told him he was wrong" in his post, but there's no indication that he said that in the sitch. And he didn't even say he directed the frosh coach to shut his assistant up and keep him in line. He directed the HEAD coach, who is supposed to be in charge after all, to control his bench. That's the neutral, official instruction straight from the book. How is that inflamatory?[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Again IMO, you put the frosh coach on a huge spot because it's rare the HS frosh coach who is an "equal" to the V head coach...the frosh coach invariably works for the V coach in some capacity and is unlikely to direct or stand up to the V coach. Now the V coach has been publically humiliated over a minor mistake in a freshman game and the proverbial molehill has grown into a mountain.

The V coach humiliated himself making a mountain out of a molehill. The ref is just trying to get the game back on track.

Originally Posted by Corndog89

What would I have done? Being a freshman game, and even though the V coach was technically an assistant, I would have brought him and the frosh coach together and explained my mistake and that we're going POI per the rules (I don't have my rules book with me so I can't cite the exact rule). By treating the V coach (who, face it, would be my real target for pacification in light of my error) as the de facto guy-in-charge, it would probably prevent any further blow-ups.

This sounds like a great way to cut the family jewels off the frosh coach. If he can't stand up to the V coach already, you're sure not helping here. It's like a coach asking your partner to through you under the bus. Not a good plan, imo.

Originally Posted by Corndog89

Call it game management, call it humility, call it real-politick, but I want the game to continue without unecessarily bringing on more and bigger problems. This should never have escalated into a pi$$ing contest between me and the V coach.

It wasn't a pissing contenst between ichi and the coach. IT was the coach being a complete and total jerk. ichi just dealt with the sitch. got the game going, had no more game problems. I call that game management. you can call it whatever you want.

Originally Posted by Corndog89

For me the toughest part of officiating is dealing with coaches, and when I let my emotions overcome detached calm and logic, that's when I start to have real problems.

Doesn't sound like his emotions overcame his calm or his logic. I don't get how you're interpreting this as ichi's problem. The V coach got idiotic, ichi got him under control. sounds good to me.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I'm confused as to why people keep referring to the Op'er as "escalating" the situation. He handled bench personnel who were yelling at him, and then there is nothing else said about any more problems with that bench. Seems to me that he got the point across and the bench stopped yelling. The next time the situation was brought up was when the idiot coach confronted the official in the hallway outside the locker room. How-in-the-hell can you people blame the official for the coach being an a$$???

And before anyone asks, yes I would (and have) dealt with the Varsity coach sitting on the bench during a sub-varsity game and yelling at me or my crew - and I've dealt with them in much the same way as the OP did...to sit and say "Well it must have been his tone of voice or body language that caused that coach to confront him in the hallway later" is absoulutely idiotic. Or pusillanimous maybe...

And the OP didn't whack, either. pretty non-inflammatory if you ask me. This was a jerk coach, pure and simple.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

You kick a call, it is best to admit it and take your medicine.

Taking your medicine is letting somebody on the bench who is NOT the head coach YELL at you without doing something about it?

Methinks you'd be better off looking to raise a new crop of testicles too....

Just one guy's 2 cents worth.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Corndog89

JR...

Okay

We just disagree philosophically, Corndoggie. Nothing personal, fer sure.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by IchiRef

this was a first for me...

Freshman boys. Team A shot and missed and A1 hit the ball into A's backcourt where it was retreived by A2. for some odd reason, I blew my whistle and called a backcourt violation. knowing I screwed up the second I blew my whistle, I immediately comfirmed my mistake with my partner and then gave the ball back to A for a throw-in. Meanwhile team B Varsity coach who was sitting on the bench started yelling at me about how i needed to go to the possession arrow in a situation like this. I told him he was wrong and that he was not the head coach of this game and that i would only address the freshman coach, then turned to the freshman coach and asked him to keep his bench quiet.

I thought this was over when, after the game, guess who was waiting for me outside of the locker room? you got it, the varsity coach. he was livid that I would talk to him like that and that he is Always the head coach if he is on the bench and how i was a "smart alec" etc... I spoke to him for a minute and defended myself and then attempted to walk around him to the lockerroom, when he steps infront of me, blocking me from going in the door...I wanted to throw some punches, but I ended up getting around him...

What can I do in this situation?

also I tossed the home coach in the JV game, another first. after that game a spectator, who I come to find out is the girls JV coach, was waiting for me to tell me " a good official would have done this, a good official would have done that..."

Tough night....any thoughts? anything I could have done better?

Definitely do not punch him. If you feel a really big need to do something, stare at his shoes.

Then write a report to your officiating governing body and/or the athletic director about the incident.

It sounds like you had little choice in seeing the V coach after the game. In this case, end the conversation as soon as you can.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

To add to what JAR just said, it's not about losing or saving face. Seems rather selfish to me. If the coach earns a T, even if it's quietly, give it to him and move on with the game. We all have IWs, and yet we rarely have a coach turn into coach Kreshewewski over it.

And to add to what Snaqs just said, bench decorum is a major POE at the NCAA level this year. It is also a continuing concern at the high school level, as evidenced by the numerous POE's issued by the FED in the last few years. They want officials to reduce unsporting behavior, not make excuses as to why they shouldn't deal with it.

Jmo.

[Corndog89]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

We just disagree philosophically, Corndoggie. Nothing personal, fer sure.

Agree completely. And I don't disagree with your position on this...just sounded like the original poster may have reacted somewhat defensively and maybe could have handled it differently; but I wasn't there so I don't really know. But he also did ask "anything I could have done better?" so I gave my thoughts. There's more than one way to skin any cat. The boys are a little tender now, though, thanks

[tomegun]

Jurassic Referee is funny! "...you'd be better off looking to raise a new crop of testicles too...." Classic!

The only thing I would have done differently, and was not mentioned, is give the explanation. First of all, it wasn't a question it was a comment - don't answer the comment. Secondly, I wouldn't have this much discussion with the assistant anyway. Finally, the IW made this a sticky situation. Putting the ball back into play will often force a coach to...wait for it...coach his/her team.
Other than that, when the time is right stick (the coach/offender) and move (on). It is just a call that is earned. Once the unsporting behavior occurs, why is this different from a foul or violation that occurs? The officials didn't do it, they just put air in the whistle with the backing of the rulebook.

If an official gives an unwarranted T then damn it, the official is wrong!
If an official does not give a warranted T then damn it, the official is wrong and the next official may have to deal with the same behavior!