Coach Issues

[Ignats75]

Only one way to handle the in game incident. "Coach, get control of your bench" at minimum or an immediate T on bench personnel which is an indirect on the HC. I never speak to or allow a AC to have a conversation with me about a call. ANY complaint about a call from a AC warrants ONE warning and then a WHACK. Stops alot of problems.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Only one way to handle the in game incident. "Coach, get control of your bench" at minimum or an immediate T on bench personnel which is an indirect on the HC. I never speak to or allow a AC to have a conversation with me about a call. ANY complaint about a call from a AC warrants ONE warning and then a WHACK. Stops alot of problems.

This sounds like an absolute and many veterans (Rut) rightfully talk about not having absolutes. However, if you want to have an absolute either way (always talking to an assistant or never talking to an assistant), I think you've chosen the correct absolute.

[Ignats75]

Its a close to an abbsolute as I do have. But, we all have absolutes. I defy anyone one here to say that they wouldn't ever give a T to a player that dropped an N-Bomb on an opponent. Or called an official a sonuvabeech. We all have absolutes. Its just where you draw the line

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Jurassic Referee is funny! "...you'd be better off looking to raise a new crop of testicles too...." Classic!

From your thread, it looks like the MHSAA e-mail basically said the same thing to some of your fellow officials.

Btw, kudos to whoever wrote that. He recognized that they have a problem and he wants something done about it. It's nice for an official to know that someone has got his back after he takes care of bidness.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

From your thread, it looks like the MHSAA e-mail basically said the same thing to some of your fellow officials.

Btw, kudos to whoever wrote that. He recognized that they have a problem and he wants something done about it. It's nice for an official to know that someone has got his back after he takes care of bidness.

Absolutely!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Unless the whole gym hears a personal insult, you lose face by whacking somebody after you blow a call.

I missed this comment first time around. Don't know how....it's so ridiculous. Are you really saying that if a coach makes derogatory comments to you, but only loud enough that you can hear him, you should ignore those comments? You're really advocating that we should ignore personal insults as long as they're made quietly?

Un...freaking...believable...

Lah me.......

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Its a close to an abbsolute as I do have. But, we all have absolutes. I defy anyone one here to say that they wouldn't ever give a T to a player that dropped an N-Bomb on an opponent. Or called an official a sonuvabeech. We all have absolutes. Its just where you draw the line

I don't think I have any word that is an absolute ("automatic"). To call it such, you paint yourself into a corner where no matter what the circumstances, you have to call it.

In the area I work now, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be an occasion where an Nbomb between opponents would go without a whistle. But, there may be half a dozen African American players in this valley that I'm aware of.

Even if the area was more "diverse", I highly doubt I'd hear it in anything but an unsporting context. I just don't think it deserves the moniker "absolute" or "automatic." The more I think, the more I can foresee some odd circumstances in which I might not call it.

As for your second example, it could depend on the way it was said and the atmosphere in which it was said. I'm 99% sure I'd call it, but I'm just not sure.

Now, if you want to get more specific with these scenarios, you could probably come up with something I wouldn't feel the need to leave wiggle room on. But about the time you get specific enough to draw an approval for the term "automatic," you get too narrow to make the term mean anything.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I missed this comment first time around. Don't know how....it's so ridiculous. Are you really saying that if a coach makes derogatory comments to you, but only loud enough that you can hear him, you should ignore those comments? You're really advocating that we should ignore personal insults as long as they're made quietly?

Un...freaking...believable...

Lah me.......

Well, if they follow an officials error; you know, something particularly heinous like an inadvertent whistle for backcourt.

[Ignats75]

I didnt post much this summer and fall....tell me...is THeORacle just another name for the Old one who must not be named?????

[Adam]

He's off base just enough to make you wonder.

[CJRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I missed this comment first time around. Don't know how....it's so ridiculous. Are you really saying that if a coach makes derogatory comments to you, but only loud enough that you can hear him, you should ignore those comments? You're really advocating that we should ignore personal insults as long as they're made quietly?

Un...freaking...believable...

Lah me.......

I know what he's trying to get at here...that if you kick something that you should be a little more lenient towards the reaction of the coach...I don't think he's saying that you should ignore it all the time unless the whole gym hears it. I don't agree, but it's a common philosophy that I've encountered. If you screw up the coach can yell at you a little more than if you're right.

My problem with that is the coach almost always thinks you're wrong, so if you let him have at you once or twice you've given him the green light the rest of the way. Regardless of what happened prior to the coach's behavior, you have to address the behavior and if it merits a T then let him have it. You're not losing face...if a coach can't handle a missed call (which is a reality of the game) appropriately then he needs to be dealt with. His behavior serves as the model for his players who need to learn to play through it.

In regards to the OP, every official deals with coaches differently and we obviously were not there. Based on the OP, I guess I would not have addressed a comment, especially from the bench and in the event I did, I would never tell someone that they are wrong. They may very well be, but I would explain the correct rule/call and go with it. If the comment or reaction is bad enough then deal with it regardless of who it comes from.

[Mregor]

1. Write a letter to the pincipal and school board with only facts of what he did, not the actual play on the court (they won't know or care). His behavior is unacceptable.
2. Don't work there anymore.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CJRef

I know what he's trying to get at here...that if you kick something that you should be a little more lenient towards the reaction of the coach...I don't think he's saying that you should ignore it all the time unless the whole gym hears it. I don't agree, but it's a common philosophy that I've encountered.

TheOracle used the very specific description "personal insult". Now, it might be common philosophy where you officiate for officials to ignore "personal insults" at certain times, but it is rare in my area. Not many officials that I know will tolerate "personal insults" under any circumstances. Personally, I certainly won't.

[CJRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

TheOracle used the very specific description "personal insult". Now, it might be common philosophy where you officiate for officials to ignore "personal insults" at certain times, but it is rare in my area. Not many officials that I know will tolerate "personal insults" under any circumstances. Personally, I certainly won't.

Yeah I get your point with the "personal insult". I know what he was trying to get at it. Was not agreeing with him and didn't mention a "personal insult". I don't think that any official should ever put up with a "personal insult". I was trying to share a "similar" philosophy that I've encountered...if you screw up then you let the coach have a moment at your expense. And like I said before I think that philosophy, in addition to "personal insults" of course, is totally wrong. IMO if you kick a call and then let a coach walk all over you, you've lost more face than if you kick a call, pick yourself back-up and go on with the game. And if that means addressing a coaches behavior then do it. The rules do not differentiate between poor behavior after a kicked/bad call or poor behavior after a good call.

[Ignats75]

IMHO (My wife claims I should never use the letter H when I post )

Personal insults are Unsporting in nature and therefore qualify under the rules for a T no matter the circumstances. I don't consider myself T happy, but it seems to come to the fore in many threads that some of us don't like to or are afraid to issue them.