ouch...talk about losing your cool...

[NM_Ref]

http://waytogogenius.com/?p=30

What a way to lose...practice will definately not be fun tomorrow.

[Nevadaref]

The PIAA does a good job of stating that the officials kicked the rule and the school does a great thing in acknowledging that their actions were totally wrong and that they need to learn from that.

For the record, a maximum of two FTs can be awarded no matter how many team members leave the bench during an altercation as long as none of them engage in the fight. If they participate, then each is penalized with 2 FTs. These FTs could be offset by whatever penalties are handed out to the opposing team if they also enter the court.

PS In NV we have a bench-clearing rule that states if three or more individuals leave the bench, then the game is over and that team forfeits. If both teams do so, then the contest is ruled a double-forfeit.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The PIAA does a good job of stating that the officials kicked the rule and the school does a great thing in acknowledging that their actions were totally wrong and that they need to learn from that.

For the record, a maximum of two FTs can be awarded no matter how many team members leave the bench during an altercation as long as none of them engage in the fight. If they participate, then each is penalized with 2 FTs. These FTs could be offset by whatever penalties are handed out to the opposing team if they also enter the court.

PS In NV we have a bench-clearing rule that states if three or more individuals leave the bench, then the game is over and that team forfeits. If both teams do so, then the contest is ruled a double-forfeit.

Howinthe hell can you possibly know that the officials actually kicked the rule? The description of the play said "the players and the assistant coach joined the fray." If they actually "joined the fray", then maybe they were "participants" and the issuing of 12 FT's was the correct call, by rule. In situations like this, I usually like to hear the official's story also. I'm kinda funny like that.

I also fail to see where the PIAA did anything, according to the story posted. All I can see is a possibly biased account given by the AD of the team that had 6 people come off the bench.

Maybe the officials actually did screw it up. It's still never a good idea to rely solely on what a fanboy AD is saying.

[Nevadaref]

Yep, you are right. The story doesn't say that an official from the PIAA called and discussed the error, it says that it was the head official from the game! I blitzed through that too quickly.

"Tuesday morning, DeRenzo received a phone call from the head official of Monday’s night game, and got a clarification on the error that was made."

It still seems that the rule was kicked.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

"Tuesday morning, DeRenzo received a phone call from the head official of Monday’s night game, and got a clarification on the error that was made."

That was my point. DeRenzo is the AD and he is the one that is saying that an error was made. Could be, but suspicious ol' me learned a long time ago to get both sides of a story before forming an opinion. Imo, the jury is still out on this one.

I took a quick look at the PIAA website. It says that ejection reports have to be handed in for all regular season games, and anybody ejected- coach or player- has to sit out a minimum of one more game. Soooooo, the story said that it wasn't a league game, but was it considered a regular season game? Maybe somebody from Pa. can enlighten us. If so, the 5 players and the assistant coach should be getting a vacation.

[Mark Dexter]

From the AD: "DeRenzo pointed out that three ejections and three technical fouls is the most that can be dished out on one whistle, according to his interpretation of the PIAA basketball rules."

As soon as I read this, I questioned the accuracy of the rest of the AD's claim.

As JR pointed out, if 6 people come off the bench and all participate in the melee, I have 12 free throws for the other team.

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I took a quick look at the PIAA website. It says that ejection reports have to be handed in for all regular season games, and anybody ejected- coach or player- has to sit out a minimum of one more game. Soooooo, the story said that it wasn't a league game, but was it considered a regular season game? Maybe somebody from Pa. can enlighten us. If so, the 5 players and the assistant coach should be getting a vacation.

To my knowledge, all HS in PIAA belong to some conference or league, based on the size and geographic location of the school. League play usually begins towards the end of December with teams playing each other twice. Prior to league play are games sometimes referred to as exhibition games. These games count as regular season games, but are not part of the league standings. There are some HS out there that are not part of the PIAA for some reason or another. Most are religious schools. I also seem to remember that some HS in Philly were not part of the PIAA in certain sports.

To answer the second question: Ejected players and coaches must sit out a game at the same level and the refs have to fill out paperwork with the PIAA asap.

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That was my point. DeRenzo is the AD and he is the one that is saying that an error was made. Could be, but suspicious ol' me learned a long time ago to get both sides of a story before forming an opinion. Imo, the jury is still out on this one.

I took a quick look at the PIAA website. It says that ejection reports have to be handed in for all regular season games, and anybody ejected- coach or player- has to sit out a minimum of one more game. Soooooo, the story said that it wasn't a league game, but was it considered a regular season game? Maybe somebody from Pa. can enlighten us. If so, the 5 players and the assistant coach should be getting a vacation.

Any player/coach ejected in a PIAA contest is suspended for the next play date. So yes, the coach and the 5 players would all be getting a day off. The PIAA actually changed the rule this year regarding suspensions. It used to be that the player ejection in a game was suspended for any game at any level the remainder of that day (e.g. a JV/V player ejected in the JV game was also done for the V game) and the next game at the level ejected at (so JV/V player would be done for the next JV game, but not the next varsity). Now, the ejected player/coach is done for the rest of the day ejected, plus the entire next play date at all levels. There is some debate about what happens if the JVs and Vs play on different dates.

As far as league vs. regular season game. Each district in PA is divided into sections/conferences/leagues depending on what part of the state you are in. Here in the Western part of the state, most teams play a 14 game section/conference schedule, and approx. 8-10 non-section/exhibition games, which are regular season games, but do not ultimately count towards qualification for playoffs (but do count for seedings).

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

PS In NV we have a bench-clearing rule that states if three or more individuals leave the bench, then the game is over and that team forfeits. If both teams do so, then the contest is ruled a double-forfeit.

A forfeit often comes with the losing team doing so with a score of 20-0 or perhaps 2-0. The point here is that the team forfeiting is assigned 0 points. The winning team then, must be assigned something greater than 0 points. That's where the typical 20 or 2 points comes in.

In a double forfeit, is each team assigned 0 points? If so, then you have a tie game, and therefore each team could score 1 point in the standings.

Or, could each team be assigned a loss? If that is true, how could a team lose when they don't score less points than their opponent?

Just wondering.

[SMEngmann]

There are clearly a number of places here where the officials could have erred based on the facts we do know. We know that there was a pushing foul by B1 on A1, which precipitated a fight in which 6 bench personnel from team A left the bench. While it's not clear who participated and who didn't, we know that two players at a minimum on the floor faught and should've been ejected with double flagrant Ts. We don't know if anyone else on the floor participated in the fight on either side. Based on the penalty enforcement, if all 6 bench personnel participated in the fight, the HC should have been ejected as well, and it's clear he was not from the article. Also, team A would've been entitled to FTs for the original foul, which it's not clear whether they were attempted. So it's clear that the officials probably erred in some way, but not in any way close to the whacked out interpretation provided by the AD.

I agree with Mark, you don't leave the bench unless you're gonna participate in the fight. Without video, it is nearly impossible for the officials to determine precisely who actively participated and who was "pulling people off" particularly when there's no way of defining participant. If bench personnel is in the melee, chances are I will rule that he was a participant without the benefit of video.

The comments of the AD were a joke in my opinion, and I'm not talking about his rules interpretation. He expresses no remorse for the actions of his team and his coach nor has he taken any action. I coach HS baseball, and if I left the bench to participate in a fight, or even if my players did, I would be held responsible and probably lose my job the next day. No accountability, and for him to blame the officiating for mistakes is unbelievable. Take responsibility and take action at the HS level, don't blame the refs because your entire team was out of control and the coaches that you hired lacked control. Judging by the final score, it was not a very well played game either...

[Larks]

Thinking about this - correct me if I am wrong but this is situation where in NCAA, you can go to the monitor to clean everything up - who gets Ts etc.

With pretty much almost every school taping games these days, I wonder if NFHS should consider allowing officials to use any means available to them in order to clean a mess like this up. If that means getting the camera down from row 50 to see who all left the bench / threw punches, why not?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

We know that there was a pushing foul by B1 on A1, which precipitated a fight in which 6 bench personnel from team A left the bench.

Nope, we don't know that. The rule doesn't say that there has to be a fight. It also provides for when a fight MAY break out. There could have just been a flare-up of emotions.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

While it's not clear who participated and who didn't, we know that two players at a minimum on the floor faught and should've been ejected with double flagrant Ts.

Wrong twice. There may have simply been an altercation on the floor that wasn't a fight and didn't warrant any penalties, yet stirred the tempers and emotions of those on the bench and they overreacted.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Based on the penalty enforcement, if all 6 bench personnel participated in the fight, the HC should have been ejected as well, and it's clear he was not from the article.

A good point.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Also, team A would've been entitled to FTs for the original foul, which it's not clear whether they were attempted.

Not true, perhaps they were not in the bonus yet.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

I agree with Mark, you don't leave the bench unless you're gonna participate in the fight.

That opinion expressed by both of you has been proven false. Evidence to the contrary occurred in the Phoenix Suns/San Antonio Spurs playoff series.

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

The comments of the AD were a joke in my opinion, and I'm not talking about his rules interpretation. He expresses no remorse for the actions of his team and his coach nor has he taken any action. I coach HS baseball, and if I left the bench to participate in a fight, or even if my players did, I would be held responsible and probably lose my job the next day. No accountability, and for him to blame the officiating for mistakes is unbelievable. Take responsibility and take action at the HS level, don't blame the refs because your entire team was out of control and the coaches that you hired lacked control.

So you just skipped over these words? :
---------------
DeRenzo said. “We are not appealing the game. It’s not a league game, we did some things wrong and our team needs to learn and grow from this experience.”

DeRenzo was more concerned with the reactions of the adults in the melee, specifically an assistant coach that left the bench.

“The officials made a mistake and the kids will learn a valuable lesson, but the adults needed to do a better job of being role models for the kids,” said DeRenzo, who didn’t rule out a possible suspension of an assistant coach.
-------------------------------

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

Judging by the final score, it was not a very well played game either...

What a stupid statement. A low score is NOT indicative of a poorly played game. There could have been excellent defense. Long offensive possessions while working for a quality shot attempt. The kid hit 11 of 12 FTs at the end so obviously there was skill on the floor. Could you make 11 of 12?