ouch...talk about losing your cool...

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I knocked on wood (my head for those who want to know) before I started this post and I will knock on wood as soon as I hit the submit button when I finish this post.

1) The A.D.'s statement were self-serving and I do not believe a word he said about his conversation with the "head official" later that evening.

2) I have been watching basketball games for over 45 years and it is my belief that no bench personnel leaves the bench just to watch a fight. They leave the bench to join the fight.

3) This is my 37th year as a basketball official and only once (boys' H.S. varsity, 1983-84 season) have I had bench personnel leave the bench to join the fight which actually started when fans from both schools entered the court to start fighting with the players immediately after I had called an intentional foul on H1 (H = home team). The foul occured with only about 20 seconds (I don't remember the exact amount left in the game, I don't feel like climbing up into the attic to find my game report) left in the game so my partner, who was the R, and I decided that the best thing to do was to declare the game over.

4) Based upon Item (3), you know why I am knocking on wood agains as soon as I hit the submit button.

MTD, Sr.

While I agree with you on 2), the distinction that should be made IMO is that you don't penalize "intent", you penalize the act in this case. Regardless of why they leave the bench, if they somehow come to their senses between the time they leave the bench and reach the fracas, if they don't participate, then you can only penalize them for leaving the bench...either way they are gone, but it still matters in terms of adding up the FT's....

[kbilla]

This actually leads to an intersting question though, how do you define "participates"? If he pulls a teammate off of the pile did he participate? What if he pulls an opponent off? I realize at that point you are gonna have your hands full and honestly if someone put their hands on someone else, ESPECIALLY an opponent, I am probably going to charge them with participating, but how do you all define "participating"?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

This actually leads to an intersting question though, how do you define "participates"? If he pulls a teammate off of the pile did he participate? What if he pulls an opponent off? I realize at that point you are gonna have your hands full and honestly if someone put their hands on someone else, ESPECIALLY an opponent, I am probably going to charge them with participating, but how do you all define "participating"?

Any kind of contact with an opponent.

[Adam]

From the AD: "DeRenzo pointed out that three ejections and three technical fouls is the most that can be dished out on one whistle, according to his interpretation of the PIAA basketball rules."

This is what happens when some coaches and ADs try to interpret the rules all by themselves.

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That was my point. DeRenzo is the AD and he is the one that is saying that an error was made. Could be, but suspicious ol' me learned a long time ago to get both sides of a story before forming an opinion. Imo, the jury is still out on this one.

I took a quick look at the PIAA website. It says that ejection reports have to be handed in for all regular season games, and anybody ejected- coach or player- has to sit out a minimum of one more game. Soooooo, the story said that it wasn't a league game, but was it considered a regular season game? Maybe somebody from Pa. can enlighten us. If so, the 5 players and the assistant coach should be getting a vacation.

Any player/coach ejected in a PIAA contest is suspended for the next play date. So yes, the coach and the 5 players would all be getting a day off. The PIAA actually changed the rule this year regarding suspensions. It used to be that the player ejection in a game was suspended for any game at any level the remainder of that day (e.g. a JV/V player ejected in the JV game was also done for the V game) and the next game at the level ejected at (so JV/V player would be done for the next JV game, but not the next varsity). Now, the ejected player/coach is done for the rest of the day ejected, plus the entire next play date at all levels. There is some debate about what happens if the JVs and Vs play on different dates.

As far as league vs. regular season game. Each district in PA is divided into sections/conferences/leagues depending on what part of the state you are in. Here in the Western part of the state, most teams play a 14 game section/conference schedule, and approx. 8-10 non-section/exhibition games, which are regular season games, but do not ultimately count towards qualification for playoffs (but do count for seedings).

[Adam]

Iowa, I think, does the ejection thing right. If you get ejected from a game, you miss everything up until you miss the next game at the same level you were ejected from.

IOW, if you get ejected from a JV game, you can't participate at any level until you have served your suspension for the next JV game.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by kbilla

While I agree with you on 2), the distinction that should be made IMO is that you don't penalize "intent", you penalize the act in this case. Regardless of why they leave the bench, if they somehow come to their senses between the time they leave the bench and reach the fracas, if they don't participate, then you can only penalize them for leaving the bench...either way they are gone, but it still matters in terms of adding up the FT's....

kbilla:

You are correct, you can't penalize intent in this case, but I have never seen a player or coach or other bench personnel, leave the bench and not participate. Why leave the bench, when you have a ring side seat to the fight in the first place. And as the father of two teenage boys, I know that they sometimes don't come to their sense until it is too late. Having said that, I can assure you that my two youngin's are well behaved when it comes to the nonsense that was the subject of the original post. NFHS Baseball Rules stipulate that anybody that leaves the dugout to join a fight on the field is ejected and OhioHSAA Rules stipulate a two game suspension at that level are played before a player can resume play. My older son two years ago incurred the wrath of the Toledo Start H.S. jr. varsity baseball coach because he was the only player that refused to leave the dugout to join a fight on the field. My son set him straight (and so did I later, because to describe this young punk, the coach I mean, as a horse's rear end would be an insult to the two horses that my wife and I have owned). The coach got mad at me because I had taught his son to be a good sportsman. LOL.

Mark, Jr., will take the OhioHSAA umpiring class this winter and the umpires who have umpired his games in the past can't wait for him to join their ranks because he is the only player in his games that has a level head out there. Just a chip off the old block. But I am really looking forward to Thursday of next week when Mark, Jr. and I officiate his first basketball game. We have a boys' jr. H.S. DH and I can't wait for him to carry his "old man" for two games.

MTD, Sr.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

kbilla:

But I am really looking forward to Thursday of next week when Mark, Jr. and I officiate his first basketball game. We have a boys' jr. H.S. DH and I can't wait for him to carry his "old man" for two games.

MTD, Sr.

Good for you Mark, my first son is only 9mos old and I already can't wait for the day when we get to work our first game together....my wife just shakes her head, but what does she know anyway

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Any kind of contact with an opponent.

Or, I'd add, attempting to contact an opponent.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

But I am really looking forward to Thursday of next week when Mark, Jr. and I officiate his first basketball game. We have a boys' jr. H.S. DH and I can't wait for him to carry his "old man" for two games.

MTD, Sr.

Maz'l Tov, Mark.

I can only begin to describe the exquisite pleasure I derive from working with any of my 3 sons who officiate. Hope your experience is memorable and enjoyable...

Be sure to let us know how it went, and if you owed him any refreshments afterwards!!!!!!

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Hold on. What about this from the article:



So you PA guys...why would an official contact an AD to 'clarify' an error? And what might that error be?

I wonder if the AD had called the assignor or league supervisor of officials that night after the game, and left a message. Then when that assignor or league supervisor called the AD back, that got interpreted as "the head official for the game". Sounds like the reporter didn't really do a very good job of keeping all the facts straight. Didn't talk to both sides.

[refnrev]

So for the record... since we have had different posts stating differeing opinions... The correct procedure would have been how many ejections and how many shots?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by refnrev

So for the record... since we have had different posts stating differeing opinions... The correct procedure would have been how many ejections and how many shots?

Sounds like we don't know for sure, since we don't have all the facts.

[refnrev]

But is the maximum number of shots 2 like Nevada said, or is it that incorrect?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I wonder if the AD had called the assignor or league supervisor of officials that night after the game, and left a message. Then when that assignor or league supervisor called the AD back, that got interpreted as "the head official for the game". Sounds like the reporter didn't really do a very good job of keeping all the facts straight. Didn't talk to both sides.

errr....OK...that could happen...

Or just maybe one of the officials called the AD like the article said.