4-44 Article 3

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by kblehman

1. A1 is being pressured heavily in the front court and is forced to pick up his dribble. Left foot becomes pivot. Defense now overplays the passing lanes. A1 starts to pass to A2 but sees it would be picked off so he holds up. However, his momentum has carried him off his left (pivot) and onto his right foot. So now he's balancing on his right foot, left foot in the air. This is not a travel unless his left foot comes back down, correct?

Correct. This is not a violation, and he can legally stand on his right foot until he returns his left to the floor or commits any other violation or foul (or obviously passes or shoots the ball).

Originally Posted by kblehman

2. The point guard (A1) begins to penetrate, drawing defenders to him. A1 then kicks it out to B1, who is setting up for a three on the right wing. B1 catches the pass, then does a small bunny-hop to square himself for the three. The bunny-hop was with both feet and after he caught the ball. Is this a travel? (IMO yes) If so, how close do you call it?

"Bunny-hopping" as you have described is illegal, and I will call it when I see it in a high school game. Depending on the level of play, this may get a pass from me in a middle school game.

There is a legal way to bunny-hop, and that's by executing a legal jump stop - if the player catches the ball with one foot on the ground, or catches in the air then lands on one foot, he can jump off that foot and onto both feet simultaneously, then jump to shoot or pass, or begin a dribble.

This is the one time a player who is standing and holding the ball (edit) may not establish a pivot foot.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by kblehman

1. A1 is being pressured heavily in the front court and is forced to pick up his dribble. Left foot becomes pivot. Defense now overplays the passing lanes. A1 starts to pass to A2 but sees it would be picked off so he holds up. However, his momentum has carried him off his left (pivot) and onto his right foot. So now he's balancing on his right foot, left foot in the air. This is not a travel unless his left foot comes back down, correct?

Correct.

Originally Posted by kblehman

2. The point guard (A1) begins to penetrate, drawing defenders to him. A1 then kicks it out to B1, who is setting up for a three on the right wing. B1 catches the pass, then does a small bunny-hop to square himself for the three. The bunny-hop was with both feet and after he caught the ball. Is this a travel? (IMO yes) If so, how close do you call it?

This is a travel. Around here, it never gets called. YMMV

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by kblehman

Ahh, I see. So in my situation, where the defender has forced the ball handler to pick up his dribble, the ball handler essentially has one step left as long as he unloads the ball before the original pivot foot comes back down.

I've always thought he had to leave the floor either off his established pivot foot or off both feet simultaneously. It still seems strange to me that he essentially gets an extra step (if he had continued his layup drive he wouldn't have) but I will acquiesce to the experts.

Thank you for helping me understand, and especially for clarifying the nature of the pivot foot. I appreciate it.

Always glad to help. My obsession with language can be a problem sometimes, and sometimes it's a real advantage. In this case, it worked for me, and for you.

My suggestion is that you start letting a lot of these borderline travel go (equally for both teams)until another official gets critical. Then you'll know you've gone too far, and you can tighten up just a little. Give yourself a chance to practice seeing which foot is the pivot, where the ball is gathered (dribble ended) getting a feel for how to see this before you start deciding where to call it. You're on the right track now. Keep pursuing that all important balance!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

My suggestion is that you start letting a lot of these borderline travel go (equally for both teams)until another official gets critical.

My suggestion is that you ignore this suggestion.

There is NO such thing as a "borderline" travel. It's either a travel...or it's legal. Allowing players to score illegally is just wrong imo.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There is NO such thing as a "borderline" travel. It's either a travel...or it's legal. Allowing players to score illegally is just wrong imo.

I happen to agree with Jurassic here. The play you described is not borderline at all - it is legal, and that's why you should let it go.

I'll also add that the only thing I think is worse than allowing a player to score illegally would be disallowing a legal play like has been described throughout this thread.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

My suggestion is that you ignore this suggestion.

There is NO such thing as a "borderline" travel. It's either a travel...or it's legal. Allowing players to score illegally is just wrong imo.

Okay, let me rephrase. My suggestion is that while kb is still learning to see when the ball was gathered, whether the pivot foot left the floor before the ball left the hand to start a dribble, how to determine which foot is the pivot foot, that he err on the side of only calling what he's 100% certain of, and not using 75% or 80% certain as his determiner. Focus on seeing fully rather than on calling everything. When he sees more clearly, he can call more consistently.

Does that sound more acceptable?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Okay, let me rephrase. My suggestion is that while kb is still learning to see when the ball was gathered, whether the pivot foot left the floor before the ball left the hand to start a dribble, how to determine which foot is the pivot foot, that he err on the side of only calling what he's 100% certain of, and not using 75% or 80% certain as his determiner. Focus on seeing fully rather than on calling everything. When he sees more clearly, he can call more consistently.

Does that sound more acceptable?

Excellent rephrasing.

See the entire play and call traveling when it's there. If you know the rules and are still unsure, then you haven't seen the entire play and should pass even if you think it probably was a travel. Only call what you see.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

My suggestion is that while kb is still learning to see when the ball was gathered, whether the pivot foot left the floor before the ball left the hand to start a dribble, how to determine which foot is the pivot foot, that he err on the side of only calling what he's 100% certain of, and not using 75% or 80% certain as his determiner. Focus on seeing fully rather than on calling everything. When he sees more clearly, he can call more consistently.

Does that sound more acceptable?

What is highlighted in red above is not only acceptable imo but should also be the norm for all calls at all times.

The short version is "don't guess".

[kblehman]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

My suggestion is that while kb is still learning to see when the ball was gathered...

Simultaneously determining which is the pivot foot and when the ball is gathered is difficult for me when players employ the jump stop, especially if the ball handler is in traffic. Sometimes I can just tell by the look of the drive that he took one too many after he gathered the ball, but other times it's difficult to tell. (FWIW, if I don't know for sure I don't call it.)

Originally Posted by rainmaker

... whether the pivot foot left the floor before the ball left the hand to start a dribble, how to determine which foot is the pivot foot...

These I don't have a lot of trouble with. It's that pesky jump stop that's difficult for me to break down.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

...that he err on the side of only calling what he's 100% certain of, and not using 75% or 80% certain as his determiner.

I don't know if this is the correct overall philosophy to apply, but it's what I try and do for all calls. One of the things I mention to my partner just before the toss is: "Call what you see, but be sure to see what you call." IOW, if I don't see it, don't guess.

[kblehman]

1. A1 is being pressured heavily in the front court and is forced to pick up his dribble. Left foot becomes pivot. Defense now overplays the passing lanes. A1 starts to pass to A2 but sees it would be picked off so he holds up. However, his momentum has carried him off his left (pivot) and onto his right foot. So now he's balancing on his right foot, left foot in the air. This is not a travel unless his left foot comes back down, correct?

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Correct. This is not a violation, and he can legally stand on his right foot until he returns his left to the floor or commits any other violation or foul (or obviously passes or shoots the ball).

Please indulge me for one more follow-up. What if A1 goes to pass the ball and instead of lifting his pivot foot off the floor he drags it 6" without it ever leaving the floor. Is that a travel?

[Adam]

yes.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by kblehman

1. A1 is being pressured heavily in the front court and is forced to pick up his dribble. Left foot becomes pivot. Defense now overplays the passing lanes. A1 starts to pass to A2 but sees it would be picked off so he holds up. However, his momentum has carried him off his left (pivot) and onto his right foot. So now he's balancing on his right foot, left foot in the air. This is not a travel unless his left foot comes back down, correct?

If both feet were on the floor, he may lift the pivot without a violation unless he returns the foot to the floor or starts a dribble. If he hops from his left foot to his right, (both feet off the floor) violation.

Please indulge me for one more follow-up. What if A1 goes to pass the ball and instead of lifting his pivot foot off the floor he drags it 6" without it ever leaving the floor. Is that a travel?

yes

[kblehman]

What if A1 goes to pass the ball and instead of lifting his pivot foot off the floor he drags it 6" without it ever leaving the floor. Is that a travel?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

yes.

I still don't agree with the lift pivot-foot rule (from a stationary player), but now it's confirmed that a stationary player can fully step off of his pivot foot, but not drag it. LOL, I'm sufficiently confused now....

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by kblehman

What if A1 goes to pass the ball and instead of lifting his pivot foot off the floor he drags it 6" without it ever leaving the floor. Is that a travel?

I still don't agree with the lift pivot-foot rule (from a stationary player), but now it's confirmed that a stationary player can fully step off of his pivot foot, but not drag it. LOL, I'm sufficiently confused now....

Read the definition of pivot: 4-33 ......the pivot foot is kept at its point of contact with the floor.


The player is allowed to lift the pivot to shoot or pass, but not to start a dribble.
Any time the pivot is lifted and returned to the floor, it is a violation. Simple enough?

[Adam]

There are rules I disagree with as well, even if this isn't one of them.

Think of dragging the pivot foot as, essentially, moving it from one location on the floor to another.

As long as he can balance for 4 seconds (maybe 9 in the backcourt), lifting it in the air is legal. It's a step-through move that's been around forever.