Flopping

[mbyron]

I have to say that officials in my area are very reluctant to call a T, on this or anything else. I think that attitude toward technical fouls drives people to think of workarounds, such as the one gordon30307 has devised. (I don't presume to say what motivated him.)

I think that it's a bad habit to come up with workarounds when the rules specifically address a problem, and that we should diagnose what attitude (disliking T's, for example) lies behind the desire for a workaround.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, you advocate lying to a coach, then tossing him when he calls you on it?

First thing I say. Sorry Coach you may be right, or from your angle you may be right, I saw it different, or something like that. If he persists. Coach are you accusing me of cheating? If he's stupid enough to say yes. See ya!!!!!!!!

I'm not getting into a p***ing contest with you either. What works for you works for you. Lots of different ways to handle situations. Have a good day.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

First thing I say. Sorry Coach you may be right, or from your angle you may be right, I saw it different, or something like that. If he persists. Coach are you accusing me of cheating? If he's stupid enough to say yes. See ya!!!!!!!!

I'm not getting into a p***ing contest with you either. What works for you works for you. Lots of different ways to handle situations. Have a good day.

So, you advocate lying to the coach?

Look, if you're going to call it that way, be honest with the coach about it when he questions you.

"Coach, you're right. He flopped. By rule, it's a Technical foul. I thought I'd save your player a T, but if you want me to do it by the book, I can oblige."

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

First thing I say. Sorry Coach you may be right, or from your angle you may be right, I saw it different, or something like that.

Since you admitted you saw the flop, this is obviously lying to the coach. If the coach saw the same thing, he also knows you're lying. If I was your partner, you would've lost your credibility in my eyes.

Originally Posted by gordon30307

If he persists. Coach are you accusing me of cheating? If he's stupid enough to say yes. See ya!!!!!!!!

Again, you lie to him, he calls you on it, and you toss him?

Originally Posted by gordon30307

Lots of different ways to handle situations.

This is not meant to be a p!ssing contest, unless you want to make it that. You are right that there are many ways to handle situations; I'm curious as to why you picked this particular way, as opposed to warning the player first? How about mentioning to the coach that you saw the player flop? If it's an obvious flop, why wouldn't you call the T?

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Since you admitted you saw the flop, this is obviously lying to the coach. If the coach saw the same thing, he also knows you're lying. If I was your partner, you would've lost your credibility in my eyes.


Again, you lie to him, he calls you on it, and you toss him?


This is not meant to be a p!ssing contest, unless you want to make it that. You are right that there are many ways to handle situations; I'm curious as to why you picked this particular way, as opposed to warning the player first? How about mentioning to the coach that you saw the player flop? If it's an obvious flop, why wouldn't you call the T?

Why call the T. I agree as per rule you're right if you do. If I call the block the kids still being "punished if you will". I don't have to deal with all of the emotions that occur when a T is called. Incidently last year I called 26 Tees of all sorts bookkeping etc. Only one ejection an AAU Coach. Lest you think I don't. I did about 110 games of various sorts. No t's in Varsity Games. Most were in AAU.

I can't see myself calling a T for flopping (Not saying I never will) I will either pass on it, call a block, tell the kid to stop etc.

Hey you should be off ball when I made that call. LOL

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Since you admitted you saw the flop, this is obviously lying to the coach. If the coach saw the same thing, he also knows you're lying. If I was your partner, you would've lost your credibility in my eyes.

Coaches think we lie to them even when we are not lying to them. At some point, who gives a rat's azz if a coach thinks were are lying. I am not talking about this situation, but I am not going to admit something to a coach because my partner obviously screwed up. I do not care about my credibility about a coach on the basis of one call. I am starting to channel Dan's mind or spirit or something, but why are we so concerned with what a coach thinks and in a year they will not even be at that job anymore?

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am starting to channel Dan's mind or spirit or something,

Jeff channelling Dan?? That's a picture I'm gonna have to take to counselling to get rid of....

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Coaches think we lie to them even when we are not lying to them. At some point, who gives a rat's azz if a coach thinks were are lying.

Jeff, I'm not talking about simply what a coach thinks. I'm also not talking about going over to the coach and telling them my partner screwed up. I'm talking about the credibility of an official that outright lies about their call. I'm talking about this situation. If one of my partners lies about a call, our whole crew has been affected. If I know he made up this call, how do I know he doesn't make up other calls? Should I start watching his area? How do I know he got the proper shooter for the FT, and not just picked out any player because he wasn't watching? Damn! I just missed a call because I'm too busy thinking about these things. The overall perfomance of the crew, and the trust level between crew members has come down a couple of notches.

In almost 20 years of officiating, I've only called this T twice, and one of those was in wreck league. Flopping doesn't happen often, but there are other alternatives to handling this situation. There's quietly reminding the player they're not eligible for Oscar consideration. There's mentioning the play to the coach. There's calling a block if the offensive player falls over the flopper. I'm not sure lying about a call, or making up a call, should be one of the alternatives.

[Adam]

I've generally found that, at higher levels (JV and up), coaches know what's going on. If you have a no call and their defender is lying on the floor, he (or she) knows what happened. I've had more than one coach yell at their player here, and when I've been questioned I just say he fell backwards before any contact was made. Works (almost) every time.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Jeff, I'm not talking about simply what a coach thinks. I'm also not talking about going over to the coach and telling them my partner screwed up. I'm talking about the credibility of an official that outright lies about their call. I'm talking about this situation. If one of my partners lies about a call, our whole crew has been affected. If I know he made up this call, how do I know he doesn't make up other calls? Should I start watching his area? How do I know he got the proper shooter for the FT, and not just picked out any player because he wasn't watching? Damn! I just missed a call because I'm too busy thinking about these things. The overall perfomance of the crew, and the trust level between crew members has come down a couple of notches.

In almost 20 years of officiating, I've only called this T twice, and one of those was in wreck league. Flopping doesn't happen often, but there are other alternatives to handling this situation. There's quietly reminding the player they're not eligible for Oscar consideration. There's mentioning the play to the coach. There's calling a block if the offensive player falls over the flopper. I'm not sure lying about a call, or making up a call, should be one of the alternatives.

Hey M&M I got a question for you. Your partner misses an obvious foul/travel/double dribble etc. You see it and you don't blow the whistle. The Coach says "you saw that you were looking right at it I know you saw it. Do you throw your partner under the bus. Or do you say I was off ball, my partner had a better look etc., etc. etc. I would like to think you wouldn't throw your partner under the bus.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

Hey M&M I got a question for you. Your partner misses an obvious foul/travel/double dribble etc. You see it and you don't blow the whistle. The Coach says "you saw that you were looking right at it I know you saw it. Do you throw your partner under the bus. Or do you say I was off ball, my partner had a better look etc., etc. etc. I would like to think you wouldn't throw your partner under the bus.

The best response is....wait for it....

....thank you.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

Hey M&M I got a question for you. Your partner misses an obvious foul/travel/double dribble etc. You see it and you don't blow the whistle. The Coach says "you saw that you were looking right at it I know you saw it. Do you throw your partner under the bus. Or do you say I was off ball, my partner had a better look etc., etc. etc. I would like to think you wouldn't throw your partner under the bus.

If it was outside my area, of course my partner probably had the better look.

I still have a question for you: what is your justification for making up a call (calling a block with no contact), and then lying to the coach about the call ("I saw it different")?

[Adam]

"Coach, my partner had a better look at that than I did, you'll have to ask her."
No lie, and no one looks up at the undercarriage of a bus. Integrity and loyalty.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Coach, my partner had a better look at that than I did, you'll have to ask her."

Still sipping diet pop, I see.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Still sipping diet pop, I see.

Hey, I'm trying to be empathetic. You're not helping me with your ridicule.

Do I sound irritable?