rotation

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well to me, if the ball moves that slow in the women's game then there is no reason not to walk your butt over there. What if the girl beats her man and the defender gets right behind her and your partner gets stacked on the play? Well if he's stacked by seeing nothing but the defenders back, then you as the lead across the paint have the same look but on the inverse, you will be stacked seeing nothing but the offensive players front and you will then depend on the Trail (cause I know you two aren't going to guess at this play just because she flailed her arms), who is across the court furthest from the play and because you didn't get over he has the best angle, he now has to come get that play when she gets shoved from behind. While all you had to do was get over there and see that the defender slightly takes her hand and shoves her in the small of her back, causing her shot to be affected. Now you have the closest guy to the play making the call and just adding to the overall credibility of the crew.

WHEWW... a lot of typing to make a small point but worth it, I do believe.

Your point has some merit also. That said, I think I'm going stay with JR on this. No sense scurrying over there to officiate nothing but landscape.

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.

[mick]

Originally Posted by fullor30

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.

Ha! Good one.

I didn't read all the posts in their entirety, but did anyone mention that the lead is rarely on the weak side ?

"I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side. "

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by mick

Ha! Good one.

I didn't read all the posts in their entirety, but did anyone mention that the lead is rarely on the weak side ?

"I'm lead strong side and ball gets reversed and an immediate five count is started in front of C.

He goes with count and moves back into trail territory following players. I remain weak side as there is possible post play and only two players(dribbler and defender) on ball side. "

I'm with you mick. It's a weak move to stay on the weak side at Lead. Instead of being late on getting over there when a post player dives to the ball side block, like any good post would, you can beat the play over there. But like I said earlier this is one weird situation apparently.

There was no chance in hell of any "possible post play" on the opposite block. I have never seen an entry pass to the post from the totally opposite wing into the opposite side post.

P.S. Fullor I'm glad you came somewhere, anywhere to ask questions. That shows that you want to learn and thats great. I don't know if you have been to any camps, but you should go to some high level ones with big time referees as your instructors. Maybe they can convince you that this is not the correct thought process to have on this type of play. I can almost guarantee you that all the "big time referees" who don't have dead legs are going to get over there on this play or at least the ones I know. What is it or how is it going to hurt you or your crew to get over there? I am really asking this question of you. I am now wanting to get inside yours and JRut's head, who I am suprised has this train of thought on this play. All I can think of is the negatives that come out of you NOT rotating. What are the positives of you not rotating?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

There was no chance in hell of any "possible post play" on the opposite block. I have never seen an entry pass to the post from the totally opposite wing into the opposite side post.

I disagree with that statement. Because I see teams that are one-sided (right handed or left handed) and they move the ball only to bring the ball back to the same side because that is where their big men like to go to the basket. And at the HS level it is very common because players are not as skilled to use both hands equally.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

P.S. Fullor I'm glad you came somewhere, anywhere to ask questions. That shows that you want to learn and thats great. I don't know if you have been to any camps, but you should go to some high level ones with big time referees as your instructors. Maybe they can convince you that this is not the correct thought process to have on this type of play. I can almost guarantee you that all the "big time referees" who don't have dead legs are going to get over there on this play or at least the ones I know. What is it or how is it going to hurt you or your crew to get over there? I am really asking this question of you. I am now wanting to get inside yours and JRut's head, who I am suprised has this train of thought on this play. All I can think of is the negatives that come out of you NOT rotating. What are the positives of you not rotating?

I also had to respond to this, because it would depend on what you call a "big time referee." I attend a camp almost every year in my area that is run by an official that has been to multiple Final Fours and was worked the Final Four just this past year. I can tell you he teaches things very differently than a camp run by the most powerful Women's Supervisor in the country just a few miles away. If you attend her camp that is also run in the same general Chicago area, you will have to use a completely different set of mechanics. I also attended Dale Kelly's Camp who has multiple NCAA Tournament officials working as clinicians and they do not teach to rotate like you have suggested. As a matter of fact I was given about a 30 minute lecture (as well as my two partners who work D1 at the time of this game) about rotations. The person that did is a new supervisor in a D1 conference in the south and was also a Final Four Official during his career. He specifically told me (and my partners) not to rotate just because the ball goes to one side and all the players are on the other. He even told me to rotate away from the ball if all the players are on the other side court and you know based on tendencies the team likes to go to that side of the floor. So it really depends on what you call "big time" because that changes based on whose camp you go to.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Your point has some merit also. That said, I think I'm going stay with JR on this. No sense scurrying over there to officiate nothing but landscape.

The beauty of these discussions are I just got smarter the next time it happens.

As was reinforced in a camp I was at this summer, the lead has the post play. If the post players are on the weak side (and are staying on the weak side), the lead stays weak side...no need to officiate and empty block. If the isolation HAPPENS to drive all the way in, it's the C's (primary) call all the way in with the "helping".

[mick]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As was reinforced in a camp I was at this summer, the lead has the post play. If the post players are on the weak side (and are staying on the weak side), the lead stays weak side...no need to officiate and empty block. If the isolation HAPPENS to drive all the way in, it's the C's (primary) call all the way in with the "helping".

That's some camp!
If, at your camp, the Lead is on the weak side, then the Trail and Center are on the strong side. Funny thing to teach.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by mick

That's some camp!
If, at your camp, the Lead is on the weak side, then the Trail and Center are on the strong side. Funny thing to teach.

OK, I used the wrong word. (strong side = side with two officials) Sue me!

You get my point....the lead covers the post action and the C may be left alone with the ball. Of course, the most interesting post action is usually going to be on the ball side.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As was reinforced in a camp I was at this summer, the lead has the post play. If the post players are on the weak side (and are staying on the weak side), the lead stays weak side...no need to officiate and empty block. If the isolation HAPPENS to drive all the way in, it's the C's (primary) call all the way in with the "helping".

That's my philosophy too. And I want to make it clear, this sitch was only for a few seconds, A1 broke the count, and post players drifted over, necessitating a switch.

Btaylor..........I did attend a well known final four official's camp also hosted by top interp guy in Illinois. This sitch never came up there, yet I was never observed not making enough rotations as lead. The same for a college camp I attended.

I wouldn't describe it as a 'weak' move as you posted. It appears we have varied opinions on this and discourse is good. That said, I'm not here to validate my ability but to share philosophies and learn.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Btaylor..........I did attend a well know final four officials camp also hosted by top interp guy in Illinois. This sitch never came up there, yet I was never observed not making enough rotations as lead. The same for a college camp I attended.

We attended the same camp.

Peace

[fullor30]

[QUOTE=JRutledge]We attended the same camp.

Peace[/QUOTE


I thought you might have..............

Look forward to meeting you, hopefully on the court somewhere.

My favorite camp. Love Fitz's philosophy on stuff.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I thought you might have..............

Look forward to meeting you, hopefully on the court somewhere.

My favorite camp. Love Fitz's philosophy on stuff.

Fitzy has been very helpful to me over the last few years. I have learned a lot from him and the other clinicians at that clinic. It is a really good camp and to learn from all that experiences has added years to my ability.

Peace

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Fitzy has been very helpful to me over the last few years. I have learned a lot from him and the other clinicians at that clinic. It is a really good camp and to learn from all that experiences has added years to my ability.

Peace

Amen.................I go there and metamorphis(sp) into a sponge.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by fullor30

That's my philosophy too. And I want to make it clear, this sitch was only for a few seconds, A1 broke the count, and post players drifted over, necessitating a switch.
Btaylor..........I did attend a well known final four official's camp also hosted by top interp guy in Illinois. This sitch never came up there, yet I was never observed not making enough rotations as lead. The same for a college camp I attended.

I wouldn't describe it as a 'weak' move as you posted. It appears we have varied opinions on this and discourse is good. That said, I'm not here to validate my ability but to share philosophies and learn.

Well I'm glad you are attending camps, thats always good, keep it up.

Then why not do what I and others have said and get over there to beat the play so you can have the play coming to you instead of it going away from you and now you are trying to play catch up?

Let me ask this question. If you are at Lead and you are reffing the post play where the post player has the ball and he spins away from you and toward the slot, are you going to have much credibility on a play that going away from you and toward the slot if you blow the whistle? The slot is in the greatest position to receive this play, as it is coming to him.

I'm sorry I know I'm not going to change your mind, YET. haha I am just trying to give you as much food for thought as I can. I will say this though, it is respectable that the state of Illinois has likeminded officials.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Well I'm glad you are attending camps, thats always good, keep it up.

Then why not do what I and others have said and get over there to beat the play so you can have the play coming to you instead of it going away from you and now you are trying to play catch up?

Let me ask this question. If you are at Lead and you are reffing the post play where the post player has the ball and he spins away from you and toward the slot, are you going to have much credibility on a play that going away from you and toward the slot if you blow the whistle? The slot is in the greatest position to receive this play, as it is coming to him.

I'm sorry I know I'm not going to change your mind, YET. haha I am just trying to give you as much food for thought as I can. I will say this though, it is respectable that the state of Illinois has likeminded officials.

Then why not do what I and others have said and get over there to beat the play so you can have the play coming to you instead of it going away from you and now you are trying to play catch up?

Because I'm going to do 'what I and others have said' . I'll rotate when I need to rotate. Please reread previous posts from others for their rationale.

What play am I beating? I have a good sense of what's happening on the court and this example we've been discussing, there wasn't going to be any play to 'beat'. In fact the more we discuss this, the more comfortable I am in my decision. More to the point, based on my instincts, there was no play to 'beat'. I liken this to a school crossing guard getting to his deserted corner an two hours before school gets out to 'beat' the rush.

I certainly wouldn't criticize you for rotating in this case if you feel it makes you a better official. I don't feel there is a right or wrong here. If we 'went to the videotape' we might have legitimate evidence of the urgency for a rotation but we don't.

I will say this though, it is respectable that the state of Illinois has likeminded officials

And well educated!

Can I ask what state you're from?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Then why not do what I and others have said and get over there to beat the play so you can have the play coming to you instead of it going away from you and now you are trying to play catch up?

Because I'm going to do what others have said and myself. I'll rotate when I need to rotate. Please reread previous posts from others for their rationale.

What play am I beating? I have a good sense of what's happening on the court and this example we've been discussing, there wasn't going to be any play to 'beat'. In fact the more we discuss this, the more comfortable I am in my decision. More to the point, based on my instincts, there was no play to 'beat'. I liken this to a school crossing guard getting to his corner an hour before school gets out to 'beat' the rush.

Can I ask what state you're from?

Not only should you not worry about getting "beat," the ball might come right back where all the players are. Players do not follow the ball like a moth to light. Anyone who thinks that has not watched a lot of basketball. Players move without the ball on the backside just to make sure they get an open shot.

Peace