another off the wall study guide question

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 receives a pass standing still with both feet on the floor. He places the ball on the floor and releases it simultaneously with both hands. (WHY???)

He then picks the ball up and starts a dribble. Ruling: Legal play.

uh.....true?........maybe......weird.....definitel y

In my opinion, the first action meets the definition of a dribble once the ball is released. If after picking the ball up the player dribbles again, I would penalize for an illegal (double) dribble violation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In my opinion, the first action meets the definition of a dribble once the ball is released. If after picking the ball up the player dribbles again, I would penalize for an illegal (double) dribble violation.

And you would be incorrect.

This is not a dribble, not a fumble, and not a pass. It's NOTHING.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And you would be incorrect.

This is not a dribble, not a fumble, and not a pass. It's NOTHING.

Is that merely your opinion or do you have something authoritative to back up your statement?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In my opinion, the first action meets the definition of a dribble once the ball is released.

If holding the ball and touching it to the floor is not a dribble (and we all know it's not), why would holding the ball and touching it to the floor and releasing the ball be a dribble?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If holding the ball and touching it to the floor is not a dribble (and we all know it's not), why would holding the ball and touching it to the floor and releasing the ball be a dribble?

It seems to me that when a player who is holding the ball purposely releases it that action has to either a pass, a dribble, or a try for goal. What else could it be?

Remember we have an NFHS interp that says that a "pass" which hits the floor and then is retreived by the original player constitutes a dribble.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It seems to me that when a player who is holding the ball purposes releases it that action has to either a pass, a dribble, or a try for goal. What else could it be?

Remember we have an NFHS interp that says that a "pass" which hits the floor and then is retreived by the original player constitutes a dribble.

If a player jumps, realizes he has no shot, no open pass, then, while still in the air, releases the ball, which falls to the floor, and he does not touch it again, what do we have? Nothing. Now I realize the two situations are different. But is a precedent for a "nothing" answer to this question.

[Nevadaref]

That is either a dribble or a pass. I'd go with that's a pass. (Yes, I know that the definition says "to another player." I predict that this ball will go to another player. )

Since you state that the player doesn't touch the ball again, this would likely not be deemed a dribble.

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1's hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

[Back In The Saddle]

Yes, in this case it is a dribble. But only because he was the first to touch it. In my scenario, it's not a dribble. It's not a pass. He has simply abandoned the ball. It's nothing.

And in the case of sitting the ball down...

What if the player places the ball on the floor, and simply walks away. Is that a pass? A dribble? A try? No. What if a teammate subsequently picks it up? Does that in any way turn the placing of the ball on the floor into a dribble? A pass? A try? I'm going say no. Given that, I'm finding it difficult to accept that we must deem this a dribble. As long as he doesn't move his feet, I've got nothing.

[Nevadaref]

How do you know it's not a pass?

[Back In The Saddle]

Let me throw one more log on the fire. 4.44.5 Sit B. "It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is the first to touch the ball."

This is actually quite a similar situation, though it's certainly an oddball one. But I think there are some things to consider.

First, and foremost, simply placing the ball on the floor cannot be considered a dribble. It is not possible to travel during a dribble.

Second, this case is attached to 4-44-5, A player holding the ball.... If anything, I am forced to conclude that while setting the ball on the floor in such a way as to maintain control, and being the first to touch it again, the player is still considered to be holding the ball.

It's certainly a corner case, and the rules don't address it directly. But the case cited leads me to believe that the rules committee deems this situation to be most like the player is continuing to hold the ball, not dribbling.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A1 receives a pass standing still with both feet on the floor. He places the ball on the floor and releases it simultaneously with both hands.

He then picks the ball up and starts a dribble. Ruling: Legal play.

The best case that can be made that this action is NOT a dribble is by citing the final sentence of 4.44.5 Sit B.

"It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball."

Yet even that is not clear because we do not know if the NFHS is telling us that the setting of the ball on the floor does not constitute a dribble and thus this is traveling or if the NFHS is saying that the player is attempting to circumvent the traveling rule and therefore must be penalized anyway. I happen to believe the latter explanation.