Back court on throw in?

[IamKip]

With the new throw in rule this year the way I am reading it, how does it affect back court?

A throw in by A1 at midcourt tipped by B1 and then caught by A2 in midair who has jumped from the front court and now has landed in the back court appears to be a back court violation now? It is backed up by case play 9.9.1D

Yet in case play 9.9.1B it it is not a back court if this happens off the jumpball?

Last years rule book had a defensive player, off jumpball, and from throw in listed as exceptions in 9.9.3.

Also it would seem that this could apply in college since they have team control on the throw in, but in HS we do not. The throw in rule is written the same now in HS and college.

What are your thoughts?

IamKip

[Jurassic Referee]

Thoughts? We recently discussed these endlessly for days. Scroll down and read those threads.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by IamKip

With the new throw in rule this year the way I am reading it, how does it affect back court?

A throw in by A1 at midcourt tipped by B1 and then caught by A2 in midair who has jumped from the front court and now has landed in the back court appears to be a back court violation now? It is backed up by case play 9.9.1D

Yet in case play 9.9.1B it it is not a back court if this happens off the jumpball?

Last years rule book had a defensive player, off jumpball, and from throw in listed as exceptions in 9.9.3.

Also it would seem that this could apply in college since they have team control on the throw in, but in HS we do not. The throw in rule is written the same now in HS and college.

What are your thoughts?

IamKip

Note that in 9.9.1B the jump ball has not ended before airborne A1 gains control, so the "jump ball" exception still applies. In 9.9.1D, the throw-in has ended, so the "throw-in" exception does not apply.

[IamKip]

In both situations team control is establishd at the same time with the offensive player in the air, why differentiate between the two?

Are we saying of a jumpball if B2 tipped and tehn A1 caught theball in midair and landed in backcourt from frontcourt then that would be a backcourt violation?

IamKip

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by IamKip

In both situations team control is establishd at the same time with the offensive player in the air, why differentiate between the two?

Because the exceptions apply during the jump ball or throw-in and don't apply once that is over. While you need TC to have a BC violation, it's not relevant to the distinction between the plays.

Are we saying of a jumpball if B2 tipped and tehn A1 caught theball in midair and landed in backcourt from frontcourt then that would be a backcourt violation?

IamKip

Yes.

One of the issues here is that I (at least) cannot tell whether you are asking what the rule is, or are debating what the rule should be.

[IamKip]

Just confirming the rule.. So both the throw in and jumpball end on the tip and are backcourt in my expamples. This is different form last year correct?

IamKip

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by IamKip

Just confirming the rule.. So both the throw in and jumpball end on the tip and are backcourt in my expamples. This is different form last year correct?

IamKip

Yes to the first question.

It's probably *not* different from last year, but it is different from how many of us called it last year.

[Adam]

Previously, there was some debate on how the rules committee intended the "exceptions" to be applied. The question hinged on whether the specific examples provided were meant to be all-inclusive; or if the exception was to be applied during all times where there was no team control. The rules committee has made it clear that they are not merely examples; it is an all-inclusive list of when the exception is in effect.

[texaspaul]

Kip, when I first read it, it threw me off. I considered placement of B1 as my definition of front or backcourt. Here's were I still am puzzled.

Officials manual 07-09
1.4 Basketball Rules Fundamentals.
I. "A ball in flight has the same relationship to frontcourt or backcourt, or inbounds or out of bounds, as when it last touched a person or the floor.

My interpretation of the rule is wrong, according to most of the board and the casebook.

If B1 legally touches the ball in the backcourt, I would say the ball has backcourt status as it has not reached front court status. As A2 is leaping from frontcourt to backcourt, A2 catches the ball and lands in the backcourt. In this situation, by rule, A2's last contact was in the frontcourt, but my interpretation is that the 3 points rule has not been completed. In order for ruling backcourt the ball also would have to become frontcourt. Now I understand the rule book is talking about a dribble, but I considered the rule an understood for all backcourt rulings. Consider if A2 caught the ball with one foot on either side of the division line. I just can't see how the ball has never been established in the front court, that this is a backcourt call.
07-07 Rules Book
4-4, Article 6 "During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball is in the frontcourt when the ball and both feet of the dribbler touch the court entirely in the frontcourt.

I'll call it the way the rules committee wants it, but I simply do not understand it. I think sometimes we need to look into what the intent of the rule is.

[Adam]

Three points is only in reference to a dribble. Otherwise the ball would never gain front court status until it's dribbled there, and this simply isn't the case.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by IamKip

In both situations team control is establishd at the same time with the offensive player in the air, why differentiate between the two?

Are we saying of a jumpball if B2 tipped and tehn A1 caught theball in midair and landed in backcourt from frontcourt then that would be a backcourt violation?

IamKip

That is was we're saying.

FWIW, I don't like this ruling/clarification...it's logicially inconsistent and has no common sense basis. I think the rule should have been that a team not on control of the ball could catch the ball and land in their backcourt. It would be so much simpler and fair.

Originally Posted by IamKip

With the new throw in rule this year the way I am reading it, how does it affect back court?

A throw in by A1 at midcourt tipped by B1 and then caught by A2 in midair who has jumped from the front court and now has landed in the back court appears to be a back court violation now? It is backed up by case play 9.9.1D

Yet in case play 9.9.1B it it is not a back court if this happens off the jumpball?

Last years rule book had a defensive player, off jumpball, and from throw in listed as exceptions in 9.9.3.

Also it would seem that this could apply in college since they have team control on the throw in, but in HS we do not. The throw in rule is written the same now in HS and college.

What are your thoughts?

IamKip

The exception to the rule only applies to the FIRST person to touch the ball on a throw in (or jump ball) - as that is when the throw in legally ends. If B2 would not have tipped it, A2 would be just fine. But because B2 tipped it, the throw in ended at that point and Team A secured control of the ball in mid air - in frontcourt status.

On the jump ball, A2 was the first to touch the ball. No violation.