case 10.5.1 Sit C

Actually it is 10-4-4 under NCAA rules, and they allow a lot more leeway than the Fed.

NCAA 10-4-4d
A coach, team member or team attendant may leave the bench area at any time to point out a scoring or timing mistake, or to request a timeout to ascertain whether a correctable error needs to be rectified.


NCAA 10-4-4e
A coach or team attendant may leave the bench area to seek information from the official scorer or official timer during a timeout or an intermission.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think Koach (or I) was commenting on the rule. He was addressing Bktballref's comment that seemed to say "coach at table = bad". I think (although I could easily be wrong) that Koach knows the rule at this point, and was merely disagreeing with the seemingly "black and white" judgment that it's always bad for the coach to be at the table.

Evidently the NFHS disagrees with both of you.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What possible good can come out of a coach being at the scorers table illegally in the real world?

Ok, I see the reason for our misunderstanding. I'm sorry. This whole conversation started because somebody asked WHY the head coach can't approach the table (with some exceptions). The origninal poster asked:

Originally Posted by Splute

can anyone honestly tell me why a coach cannot inquire for this info during these instances, but anyone else can?

I think Bktballref's comment (nothing good can come from it, he's just there to complain) was an attempt to answer that question. Personally, I don't think that coaches go to the table to complain. I think they normally go to check and/or verify something.

So my comment should've said, "If it weren't against the rules, I don't think there would be too many problems with coaches going to the table". Your comments were all made with the understandable assumption that the act itself was illegal and therefore bad. My comments were made with the assumption that we were talking about the actions at the table, rather than the coach breaking a rule to get to the table.

So yes, boys and girls, it's bad -- very very bad -- for a head coach to be at the scorer's table, except in very rare and well-defined situations. However, if it weren't against the rules, I don't think very many bad things would happen by allowing the coach to be at the table briefly to check something in the book.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

However, if it weren't against the rules, I don't think very many bad things would happen by allowing the coach to be at the table briefly to check something in the book.

I think part of the basis for this rule is the expectation that if a coach continuously goes over to the table to "check on things" it might result in that coach asking the scorekeeper to "correct" stats and that the scorekeeper might think he's supposed to take direction on that from the coach.

Besides, the table crew has enough to concentrate on without being bugged all the time by coaches.

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I think part of the basis for this rule is the expectation that if a coach continuously goes over to the table to "check on things" it might result in that coach asking the scorekeeper to "correct" stats and that the scorekeeper might think he's supposed to take direction on that from the coach.

Besides, the table crew has enough to concentrate on without being bugged all the time by coaches.

Sitting behind the scorers table of a Varsity game where I have players that Ive coached in the past on both teams, I saw a coach, team down by 15 near the end of the 3rd quarter and star player picks up 4th foul, go storming to the table yelling "he only has 3!!!" Game is stopped for about 10-15 minutes as the coach is screaming about how he has a count in his head of how many fouls his star players have and keeps asking his player "you only fouled 3 times, right?" The refs, coach, star player, and the 16 year old home team stat girl have a nice long discussion that basically boiled down to:

coach: HE ONLY HAS 3 FOULS!!!
ref 1: calm down coach, lets check the book
coach: I KNOW HE ONLY HAS 3, I KEEP TRACK OF THESE THINGS!! YOU ONLY FOULED 3 TIMES, RIGHT??
player: i think so. yeah, i should have 3
coach: SEE!! HE SHOULD HAVE 3!!! WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE IN THE BOOK?!??!
stat girl: 4 coach
coach: HOW THE HELL DOES HE HAVE 4??!? HE ONLY HAS 3!!!
other coach: can we get this game going? and can you tell him to stop yelling at the young lady?
ref 2: we got this coach
coach: NO WAY HE HAS 4, HE HAS 3 FUC--- FRIGGIN FOULS!!!
ref 1: what do you have in the book?
stat girl: 4 fouls
ref 1: gotta go with the official book, coach
coach: ARE YOU SERIOUS??? THEYRE TRYING TO CHEAT!!! HE'S GOT 3!!!

etc, for a full 10-15 minutes. the assistant coach who is doing stats on the bench comes over, shows the refs his book. It looks like 3 fouls, 1 kind of smudged like it had been erased. He tells the refs, "i think in the first quarter, you called a charge and I initially thought it was a block, so thats why that foul was erased. He should only have 3". Mind you, if it was a previous foul, wouldnt the first box be erased and the subsequent foul just marked over it? anyways, long story short, after a long long delay, the game continues, player only has 3 fouls.

This is a coach that in every game, on every defensive possession, his opponent travels and sets illegal screens and his players never foul (even at the end of a game when they are fouling on purpose, he complains about foul calls). On every offensive possession, the defense is fouling and reaching and holding.

[mbyron]

Why do you allow that behavior? He's obviously begging for a couple quick T's. Why not give him what he wants?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Sitting behind the scorers table of a Varsity game where I have players that Ive coached in the past on both teams, I saw a coach, team down by 15 near the end of the 3rd quarter and star player picks up 4th foul, go storming to the table yelling "he only has 3!!!" Game is stopped for about 10-15....

Horrible job by those officials.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

I saw a coach, team down by 15 near the end of the 3rd quarter and star player picks up 4th foul, go storming to the table yelling "he only has 3!!!"

I'd be pretty close to Ting him up just for that.

If the coach wants to argue for 15 minutes, he can shout at the wall in his locker room.

[Y2Koach]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I'd be pretty close to Ting him up just for that.

If the coach wants to argue for 15 minutes, he can shout at the wall in his locker room.

I had no preference on which team won that game until he started screaming at that young lady. I was shocked that the refs didn't step in to defend her.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

HE'S GOT 3!!!

Really Coach? That's amazing. Most guys have only two!!!

And...if you don't think I'd really say this to a coach, you don't know me at all.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Personally, I don't think that coaches go to the table to complain.

Actually, I find that coaches (and others) often complain to me about things at the table. (many of which I cannot control)
The arrow is wrong. He's starting the clock late. etc.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Actually, I find that coaches (and others) often complain to me about things at the table. (many of which I cannot control)
The arrow is wrong. He's starting the clock late. etc.

I agree. And I think that would continue to be the case (complaining to us -- and NOT complaining to the table) if the coach were allowed to check personally. I could be wrong. I just don't think it would be as big a problem as others seem to think.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Actually, I find that coaches (and others) often complain to me about things at the table. (many of which I cannot control)
The arrow is wrong. He's starting the clock late. etc.

Well, ultimately we all do lose control of these things at one time or another, but we should control them. It's very important for us to know that these things are correct all the time, and to fix them if they're not. That's part of our job. And it's proper for the coach to complain to you, not the table, if there's a problem.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Actually, I find that coaches (and others) often complain to me about things at the table. (many of which I cannot control)
The arrow is wrong. He's starting the clock late. etc.

That is actually a permissible reason for a coach to go to the table per 10-5-2.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

However, if it weren't against the rules, I don't think very many bad things would happen by allowing the coach to be at the table briefly to check something in the book.

I disagree. It's way, way too easy for the table person(proved by the home team, after all) to be hired, trained and supervised by the head coach and thus for the influence to be way too intense, even when there's no intention for it to be so. Furthermore, I've seen coaches attempt to manipulate the table person into change something, perhaps with the best intentions, but still incorrectly. If there's a problem with something in the book or on the scoreboard, there are appropriate channels for correcting that, and they don't include the coach being at the table. I really like this rule and think it's best for everyone.