Whacking Coaches

[M&M Guy]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far. But, as in unsporting T's, this has also been an excuse for officials not taking care of business. So now maybe the committee is saying, "We've let officials have some leeway, and examples like the YouTube video still happen. So now the "judgement" has been taken away. Enforce as written."

When a player steps OOB with the ball, do we just slide up along the side of the player and whisper in their ear, "Hey, be careful, make sure you stay in bounds next time"?

[Back In The Saddle]

I'll remain deeply skeptical until I see two things:

1) The big dogs enforcing this rigidly in big games.
2) Officials being fired for not enforcing it.
3) Coaches being told by the conference to STFU and get back in the box when they complain about getting whacked.

Okay, so...that's three.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far. But, as in unsporting T's, this has also been an excuse for officials not taking care of business. So now maybe the committee is saying, "We've let officials have some leeway, and examples like the YouTube video still happen. So now the "judgement" has been taken away. Enforce as written."

When a player steps OOB with the ball, do we just slide up along the side of the player and whisper in their ear, "Hey, be careful, make sure you stay in bounds next time"?

We watch players, not coaches. Just like I would not advise an official to call a T for something they do not clearly see, I would not advise an official to make a call just because someone was a step out of the box or just over the line. Also, a violation is very different than a T and it is clear that we treat those very different than when we call a T. Even all violations are not treated the same. Three seconds is looked at very different than an out of bounds violation.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We watch players, not coaches. Just like I would not advise an official to call a T for something they do not clearly see, I would not advise an official to make a call just because someone was a step out of the box or just over the line. Also, a violation is very different than a T and it is clear that we treat those very different than when we call a T. Even all violations are not treated the same. Three seconds is looked at very different than an out of bounds violation.

Peace

But isn't not watching coaches the problem? Isn't that why the various committees have been using bench decorum as a POI, because officials need to be watching the benches more often? Sure, we shouldn't call something we don't see, but maybe we should be seeing more; after all, the bench is under our jurisdiction.

There was an Illinois game I attended last year (non-Big 10) where the visiting coach squatted down and watched play from the corner inbounds. (Picture 2-3 feet in from the sideline, and 2-3 feet in off the baseline.) This in the first half, so this was in front of their bench, while IL was on offense. At one point, an IL player had to side-step the coach, but nothing obvious was said to the coach. Hey, he wasn't screaming at the refs, so why should they concern themselves, right?

Also, your argument about a T being very different than a violation isn't as true in college. With a violation, you lose a possession. With a T, (and missed FT's), you've lost nothing because of POI.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But isn't not watching coaches the problem? Isn't that why the various committees have been using bench decorum as a POI, because officials need to be watching the benches more often? Sure, we shouldn't call something we don't see, but maybe we should be seeing more; after all, the bench is under our jurisdiction.

Watching coaches are not the priority. I realize that in the perfect world that many would like to live, we can see and call everything that takes place. I personally would love to have eyes in the back of my head or on the sides of my head. Most likely most officials are only going to see coaches during times when the ball is not live and when the ball is next to the bench.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

There was an Illinois game I attended last year (non-Big 10) where the visiting coach squatted down and watched play from the corner inbounds. (Picture 2-3 feet in from the sideline, and 2-3 feet in off the baseline.) This in the first half, so this was in front of their bench, while IL was on offense. At one point, an IL player had to side-step the coach, but nothing obvious was said to the coach. Hey, he wasn't screaming at the refs, so why should they concern themselves, right?

Let me let you guys in on a little secret. I know this is going to shock many of you. The reality is that officials that work D1 ball, do not listen to the NCAA, they listen to their supervisors. If the supervisor they work for wants something done, that is what they do. You cannot work the NCAA Tournament without the conferences making recommendations to the NCAA. You cannot work D1 ball if the supervisor of a conference does not hire you. And I can tell you from knowledge that what happens in one conference might not happen in another conference. All you have to do is have a talk with an official that works multiple conferences and supervisors and that will become very obvious to anyone.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Also, your argument about a T being very different than a violation isn't as true in college. With a violation, you lose a possession. With a T, (and missed FT's), you've lost nothing because of POI.

I am going to have to disagree. College supervisors are much more explicit in their opinions on how things are called and what is expected. Most HS conferences do not have a meeting with all the conference staff or have camps only for those that work in that conference. I can tell you as someone that has worked college ball that who you work for makes a big difference in what you might call in their conference. Usually those things are not very big, but it can affect things like where you stand and how you enforce certain rules.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Watching coaches are not the priority. I realize that in the perfect world that many would like to live, we can see and call everything that takes place. I personally would love to have eyes in the back of my head or on the sides of my head. Most likely most officials are only going to see coaches during times when the ball is not live and when the ball is next to the bench.

Maybe that's what they're trying to say - we need to make it a priority. It hasn't been for a long time, and the YouTube video and my IL game example (as well as countless others) are the result. At the minimum the result doesn't look very good, and at the worst, the coach is certainly gaining an unfair advantage.

Of couse the officials do what the supervisor tells them; that's not a secret. I have had supervisors tell me to do little things that are contrary to specific rules and mechanics. What we don't know is whether the officials did what the supervisor told them in either case. In the IL game, I do not remember seeing any of the crew before, so they were probably new on staff since this was an "unimportant" non-conference game. We don't know if they were given a "good job" for not interrupting the game, or if they were ripped a new one for letting such an obvious thing go. The same with the officials in the video - did they get reprimanded for letting the coach wander like she did? We just don't know.

As far as post-season assignments, you may get recommended if you follow what the supervisor tells you, but that doesn't mean the NCAA will use you if you have been told not to follow a specific POI. Realistically, if an official has not paid attention to bench decorum all season, how far do you think they will advance if they're not used to paying attention?

Fwiw, I may not necessarily like having to pay more attention to the bench and the coaches, but that's what it looks like it's coming to. We, as officials, haven't been enforcing it well enough, so now it looks like the pendulum has swung over to no tolerance. It will be interesting to see how much they stick to it over the course of the season.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Maybe that's what they're trying to say - we need to make it a priority. It hasn't been for a long time, and the YouTube video and my IL game example (as well as countless others) are the result. At the minimum the result doesn't look very good, and at the worst, the coach is certainly gaining an unfair advantage.

And there are many that would disagree with what you are saying. I could give a damn where a coach stands and if they are a toe over the line or not. It does nothing to affect how I call the game and it does not give them an advantage unless they are directly interfering with play.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Of couse the officials do what the supervisor tells them; that's not a secret. I have had supervisors tell me to do little things that are contrary to specific rules and mechanics. What we don't know is whether the officials did what the supervisor told them in either case. In the IL game, I do not remember seeing any of the crew before, so they were probably new on staff since this was an "unimportant" non-conference game. We don't know if they were given a "good job" for not interrupting the game, or if they were ripped a new one for letting such an obvious thing go. The same with the officials in the video - did they get reprimanded for letting the coach wander like she did? We just don't know.

Well that is the reality. And until the NCAA starts hiring officials from all level of basketball, then you are going to get philosophies from one conference to another. This is not just a basketball thing. The SEC has been known as the laughing stock of college football because they advocated a mechanic that was outdated and not accepted by anyone. All the NCAA could do is who they gave assignments to for bowl games.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

As far as post-season assignments, you may get recommended if you follow what the supervisor tells you, but that doesn't mean the NCAA will use you if you have been told not to follow a specific POI. Realistically, if an official has not paid attention to bench decorum all season, how far do you think they will advance if they're not used to paying attention?

The NCAA only picks the recommended officials from the conferences. The NCAA does not pick officials the conferences do not recommend based on my understanding.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Fwiw, I may not necessarily like having to pay more attention to the bench and the coaches, but that's what it looks like it's coming to. We, as officials, haven't been enforcing it well enough, so now it looks like the pendulum has swung over to no tolerance. It will be interesting to see how much they stick to it over the course of the season.

No tolerance whether it is a basketball rule or a school policy are stupid. There has to be some judgment and common sense used. And until you see it enforced as you think it will be, and then I will stand by my statement. I bet in the end the enforcement will not come near where you are suggesting it will be.

I seriously doubt the NCAA would just put someone in the tournament that was not recommended by anyone. I would not expect someone to work a post-season HS tournament that did not get one rating or if that person did not receive any recommendations either.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The NCAA only picks the recommended officials from the conferences. The NCAA does not pick officials the conferences do not recommend based on my understanding.

You were missing my point - let's say a conference decides they don't like the "no tolerance" bench decorum rules that the NCAA is advocating. The officials might follow what the conference wants, and get recommended by the conference to the NCAA for post-season, but the NCAA might not actually use the officials from that conference. Or, even if the NCAA does use those officials, how far would they advance if they haven't been used to watching the bench all season?

I agree with you in the fact it will be very interesting to see how it plays out over the season. But it's not much different in real life - if someone takes advantage or extra liberties with a rule, usually the rule is clamped down extra hard before it's loosened again.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Perhaps Dan and Mark's position has been how the rule has been enforced so far.

Actually my comment had more to do with this

I wanna see how serious this gets. I'm too young in all of my conferences to do this, but if my CC gives me the go ahead I will

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

I agree. And I also agree it will be interesting to see how this is handled by "the big dogs" with the big name coaches. I would think at that level, with supervisors backing the officials, it won't take long for the coaches to comply.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

When I want a coach whacked, I just give the contract to my cousin Guido.

MTD, Sr.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

When I want a coach whacked, I just give the contract to my cousin Guido.

MTD, Sr.

Sounds like the NCAA will be sending some business his way.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

IMO if his conference wants their officials to take a hard line on this then he should just do it. Being young isn't an excuse to do otherwise.

It is in my conferences. If my CC says "you better not do it, let me handle it" (like I've been told before) then I will adhere to that.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I'll remain deeply skeptical until I see two things:

1) The big dogs enforcing this rigidly in big games.

Well I was sitting next to some "big dogs" when it was said and they had a look on there face that was like, "Dang we're going to have to actually do this."

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

It is in my conferences. If my CC says "you better not do it, let me handle it" (like I've been told before) then I will adhere to that.



Well I was sitting next to some "big dogs" when it was said and they had a look on there face that was like, "Dang we're going to have to actually do this."

You're too focussed on big dogs and little sh1ts.

Just do your job, you'll be OK (even in your conferences).

[Nate1224hoops]

It's actually really simple. If the NCAA or NHSL want to slow the game down, turn the focus of the game away from the players and the game and put it on the officials then this will happen. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell that this will happen. That's just my opinion. Why? In high school everytime a coach is ejected the school is fined $300. The high school leagues will be flooded with appeals from schools. If it does happen, it won't last long. It's bullsheeet. Officials don't want to watch the coach all the time and what official is going to "T" a coach after his best player misses a wide open 3 to win the game with 5 sec. remaining and the coach is standing 3 feet outside the box praying the shot goes in. GET REAL.

If they really wanted coaches in the box "24-7,"....here the little secret everyone needs to hear....THEY WOULD REQUIRE THEM TO SIT AT ALL TIMES...this would take away the need for a damn box. Some leagues do this already. But most of those are older and at some point going to change. The day they start calling a "T" for every coaches big toe that crosses the line, will be the day that officials start receiving bonuses for calling "T's." LOL