Double Foul During Free Throw

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I have the new case book here and there doesn't seem to be anything under continuous motion.

4-11-3: Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Yes, it says that. It (4-11-2) also says that continuous motion applies if there is a foul by the defense. We had a foul by both. Which rule applies?

6-7-7 can (I think) also be read both ways.

It's clear from the cases that if the try has not started, the POI is still the FT. And, if the ball is in the air, the POI is the result of the FT. WHat's not clear (to me) is what the POI is if it's during the try.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, it says that. It (4-11-2) also says that continuous motion applies if there is a foul by the defense. We had a foul by both. Which rule applies?

6-7-7 can (I think) also be read both ways.

It's clear from the cases that if the try has not started, the POI is still the FT. And, if the ball is in the air, the POI is the result of the FT. WHat's not clear (to me) is what the POI is if it's during the try.

Okay, have my case book in hand. I was reading under Continuous Motion 6.7 COMMENT ........ The continuous-motion rule applies to a free-throw try as well....... However, I can only find counting a score when the defense fouls. Since A1 also fouled (double foul) I recant my position and believe this ruling to be true.... readminister.... I enjoying this type of dialogue...thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

6-7-7 can (I think) also be read both ways.

It's clear from the cases that if the try has not started, the POI is still the FT. And, if the ball is in the air, the POI is the result of the FT. WHat's not clear (to me) is what the POI is if it's during the try.

Yup, and 6-7EXCEPTION(c) says "the opponent of a player". There is no mention of any foul combination that includes the foul by "the opponent of the player" that negates that statement. That's why I agree with you also.

As to the POI, heckuva question. I'll think about it in, oh maybe, 5 innings or so.

[truerookie]

WHat's not clear (to me) is what the POI is if it's during the try.[/QUOTE]

Bob, wouldn't we go to the arrow since there is no control when the ball in the air? no player or team control

[Adam]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Bob, wouldn't we go to the arrow since there is no control when the ball in the air? no player or team control

Only if the shot is missed. If the shot is made, POI is B's ball on the endline.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Bob, wouldn't we go to the arrow since there is no control when the ball in the air? no player or team control

Only if the shot is missed. If the shot is made, POI is B's ball on the endline.[/QUOTE]

That's what I thought. Thanks

[Back In The Saddle]

I disagree with the logic for keeping the free throw try alive. Rather than try to decide which rule has precedence, I think you apply both. The ball is not dead based on the foul by the defense; However, the ball is dead based on the foul by the offense before the try is released. Still alive + dead = dead.

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Still alive + dead = dead.

Could the ball considered in a state of half-life then?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Vinski

Could the ball considered in a state of half-life then?

Now we have to bring carbon-dating into the equation? I'm not qualified for this stuff.

[Nevadaref]

The above cited rule, this logical argument

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I disagree with the logic for keeping the free throw try alive. Rather than try to decide which rule has precedence, I think you apply both. The ball is not dead based on the foul by the defense; However, the ball is dead based on the foul by the offense before the try is released. Still alive + dead = dead.

and these two case plays convince me.

4.19.8 SITUATION D: A1 has possession of the ball and is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw situation when A4 and B4 are whistled for a double foul. RULING: A4 and B4 are charged with personal fouls and play shall resume from the point of interruption. A1 receives the ball to attempt the one-and-one free throw with the lane spaces properly occupied. (4-36-2b; 7-5-9)

6.7 SITUATION C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap? RULING: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be either personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

[Nevadaref]

Bob,
Perhaps this will satisfy the definitive phrasing that you seek.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

6.7 SITUATION C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap? RULING: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be either personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

1. circumstances is plural and the question therefore is set up to provide ALL of the circumstances in which the ball is to remain live, not just some of them. If something, such as a double foul, isn't listed in here, then the ball doesn't remain live.

2. The foul by the defense is singular as are all other references to a foul in this ruling. That is evidence that the intent of the rules makers is for continuous motion to only apply when there is a foul by the defensive team. Nothing else is included in this ruling.

Lastly if we understand the spirit and intent of the rule. It is to prevent the defense from fouling someone away from the ball everytime that the offensive team's best shooter gets the ball and is about to try for goal. That was deemed an unfair tactic, so the continuous motion rule was adopted to counteract this.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, it says that. It (4-11-2) also says that continuous motion applies if there is a foul by the defense. We had a foul by both. Which rule applies?

.........if a teammate fouls.......before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Unless there is an exception to this specified somewhere, don't we have to go with this part?

The foul by the defense did not cause the ball to become dead, but the foul by the teammate did.