Double Foul During Free Throw

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Splute

I agree with Bob. I think this is covered in the new Case Book under continuous motion. But I do not have them with me to check.

I have the new case book here and there doesn't seem to be anything under continuous motion.

4-11-3: Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Unless there is an exception to this somewhere for free throws and/or double fouls, I say the answer to the op is true.

The only thing that disappoints me is that cropduster doesn't know where to put the apostrophe in y'all.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The only thing that disappoints me is that cropduster doesn't know where to put the apostrophe in y'all.

Years ago I attended a trade show in Nashville. I learned that the plural of y'all is all-y'all.

When I was a kid growing up on the South Side of Chicago, we had a kid who moved to our neighborhood from Georgia. He said "y'all". We thought he was speaking Martian or something. Oh yeah - he also put ketchup on hot dogs. At least he did until we beat him up a few times.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Years ago I attended a trade show in Nashville. I learned that the plural of y'all is all-y'all.

Actually I think singulars and plurals are kinda muddled in the south. I find that I often say "We'll see y'all later," even when it's just me talking to one person. I suppose this might be the southern version of "My people will be in touch with your people." I, for the most part, have no "people."

[Splute]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I have the new case book here and there doesn't seem to be anything under continuous motion.

4-11-3: Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Unless there is an exception to this somewhere for free throws and/or double fouls, I say the answer to the op is true.

The only thing that disappoints me is that cropduster doesn't know where to put the apostrophe in y'all.

Thanks, I was reading it last night while watching the Cowboys and I could not remember if it stated the ball became dead in this situation or not. I know I read over the continous motion definition and maybe that is what stuck in my head. I will get my books when I go home for lunch and see what I can find as well.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I have the new case book here and there doesn't seem to be anything under continuous motion.

4-11-3: Continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for a goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Yes, it says that. It (4-11-2) also says that continuous motion applies if there is a foul by the defense. We had a foul by both. Which rule applies?

6-7-7 can (I think) also be read both ways.

It's clear from the cases that if the try has not started, the POI is still the FT. And, if the ball is in the air, the POI is the result of the FT. WHat's not clear (to me) is what the POI is if it's during the try.

[Splute]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, it says that. It (4-11-2) also says that continuous motion applies if there is a foul by the defense. We had a foul by both. Which rule applies?

6-7-7 can (I think) also be read both ways.

It's clear from the cases that if the try has not started, the POI is still the FT. And, if the ball is in the air, the POI is the result of the FT. WHat's not clear (to me) is what the POI is if it's during the try.

Okay, have my case book in hand. I was reading under Continuous Motion 6.7 COMMENT ........ The continuous-motion rule applies to a free-throw try as well....... However, I can only find counting a score when the defense fouls. Since A1 also fouled (double foul) I recant my position and believe this ruling to be true.... readminister.... I enjoying this type of dialogue...thanks.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

6-7-7 can (I think) also be read both ways.

It's clear from the cases that if the try has not started, the POI is still the FT. And, if the ball is in the air, the POI is the result of the FT. WHat's not clear (to me) is what the POI is if it's during the try.

Yup, and 6-7EXCEPTION(c) says "the opponent of a player". There is no mention of any foul combination that includes the foul by "the opponent of the player" that negates that statement. That's why I agree with you also.

As to the POI, heckuva question. I'll think about it in, oh maybe, 5 innings or so.

[truerookie]

WHat's not clear (to me) is what the POI is if it's during the try.[/QUOTE]

Bob, wouldn't we go to the arrow since there is no control when the ball in the air? no player or team control

[Adam]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Bob, wouldn't we go to the arrow since there is no control when the ball in the air? no player or team control

Only if the shot is missed. If the shot is made, POI is B's ball on the endline.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Bob, wouldn't we go to the arrow since there is no control when the ball in the air? no player or team control

Only if the shot is missed. If the shot is made, POI is B's ball on the endline.[/QUOTE]

That's what I thought. Thanks

[Back In The Saddle]

I disagree with the logic for keeping the free throw try alive. Rather than try to decide which rule has precedence, I think you apply both. The ball is not dead based on the foul by the defense; However, the ball is dead based on the foul by the offense before the try is released. Still alive + dead = dead.

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Still alive + dead = dead.

Could the ball considered in a state of half-life then?

[Nevadaref]

The above cited rule, this logical argument

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I disagree with the logic for keeping the free throw try alive. Rather than try to decide which rule has precedence, I think you apply both. The ball is not dead based on the foul by the defense; However, the ball is dead based on the foul by the offense before the try is released. Still alive + dead = dead.

and these two case plays convince me.

4.19.8 SITUATION D: A1 has possession of the ball and is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw situation when A4 and B4 are whistled for a double foul. RULING: A4 and B4 are charged with personal fouls and play shall resume from the point of interruption. A1 receives the ball to attempt the one-and-one free throw with the lane spaces properly occupied. (4-36-2b; 7-5-9)

6.7 SITUATION C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap? RULING: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be either personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes, it says that. It (4-11-2) also says that continuous motion applies if there is a foul by the defense. We had a foul by both. Which rule applies?

.........if a teammate fouls.......before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Unless there is an exception to this specified somewhere, don't we have to go with this part?

The foul by the defense did not cause the ball to become dead, but the foul by the teammate did.