Clarification of foul count

[Vinski]

Sitch - It appears a fight may occur on the playing court when A6 and A7 leave their bench.
Ruling: The two players leaving the bench are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified, and Team A's head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number of players leaving the bench).

So, I understand that Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in, but how many fouls are applied to the books. I think that in this case it would be…
*One T-foul added to A6
*One T-foul added to A7
*One indirect added to A Coach
*Two Team fouls added to Team A’s total foul count.

Do I have this right or would it be three total team fouls because of the indirect applied to the coach? Do we ever count the indirect to a coach to the team foul total?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Vinski

Sitch - It appears a fight may occur on the playing court when A6 and A7 leave their bench.
Ruling: The two players leaving the bench are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified, and Team A's head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number of players leaving the bench).

So, I understand that Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in, but how many fouls are applied to the books. I think that in this case it would be…
*One T-foul added to A6
*One T-foul added to A7
*One indirect added to A Coach
*Two Team fouls added to Team A’s total foul count.

Do I have this right

Yes

or would it be three total team fouls because of the indirect applied to the coach? Do we ever count the indirect to a coach to the team foul total?

No. No.

[Tio]

Are we talking NFHS or NCAA? In the NCAA, both players would be ejected for leaving the bench but not participating in a fight. No free throws are shot no team fouls added. Nothing assessed to head coach.

If the players participate in a fight, they receive a flagrant tech. (with free throws) and ejection.

[bigdog5142]

I want to make sure I have this straight...A6 & A7 leave the bench and the coach is assessed one indirect tech. A6 & A7 are disqualified and two team fouls are assessed.

Now...if there is a fight on the floor between A2 & B2...then A6 & A7 enter the court and join in the fight...A2, B2, A6, & A7 are disqualified...team A coach is assessed TWO indirect technical fouls because A6 & A7 participated in the fight. Offsetting fouls for A2 & B2, no FT's, three team fouls assessed to team A and one to team B. 4 FT's awarded to team B for flagrant tech fouls by A6 & A7 and is awarded the ball at the division line opposite the table.

Is this correct?

[JRutledge]

Keep it simple. If all 10 bench players came off the bench for a fight, the head coach only gets one indirect (during the same fight) which would result in only 1 Technical foul overall. And all 10 bench players are ejected from the game as well.

This was changed a few years ago.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Keep it simple. If all 10 bench players came off the bench for a fight, the head coach only gets one indirect (during the same fight) which would result in only 1 Technical foul overall. And all 10 bench players are ejected from the game as well.

This was changed a few years ago.

Peace

True....only if all 10 bench players don't fight. If they do fight, the head coach gets an indirect "T" for each of those bench players who fight. No matter what, every player who comes off the bench gets charged with a flagrant "T", whether they fight or not.

There is only one technical foul penalty administered for all of the players on each team who don't fight, but they all each still get charged with flagrant technical fouls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

True....only if all 10 bench players don't fight. If they do fight, the head coach gets an indirect "T" for each of those bench players who fight. No matter what, every player who comes off the bench gets charged with a flagrant "T".

You are right, I did not clarify that very well.

Peace

[Adam]

Okay. do you still only shoot two shots for the bench if 4 players come off and fight, and two players come off and don't fight?

[bob jenkins]

A quick use of the search function turns up this. I think it's still correct:

Divide the participants into four categories:
A) Players on the floor who fight
B) Bench personnel who leave, but do not fight
C) Bench personnel who leave and fight
D) (Head) Coach who leaves the bench (by rule it matters not whether he fights or not; in practice if he doesn't fight, I'm considering him / her to be "beckoned")

Treat each category separately:

A) Flagrant foul for each participant; team foul for each participant; one "T to be shot" for each participant; no indirects

B) Flagrant foul for each; team foul for each; one "T to be shot" for whichever side has the fewest in this category (zero if the sides are even); one indirect, no matter how many in this category

C) Flagrant foul for each; team foul for each; one "T to be shot" for each; one indirect for each

D) Flagrant foul for each; team foul for each; one "T to be shot" for each; no indirects (since it's a direct T).

Eject all the flagrant fouls; add up all the team fouls and put them in the books; record all the indirects (EJ if >=3).

Add up all the "T to be shot" for each team. Offset what you can. Shoot the rest (if any).

Arrow if they all offset. Ball to team that shoots any free throws.

Spend rest of evening writing the report.

Best advice -- stop the fight before it happens (just as with correctable errors).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are right, I did not clarify that very well.

This might help anybody asking that question, Jeff. It's new in the case book this year.

CASE BOOK PLAY 10.4.5 SITUATION A: ENTERING COURT DURING FIGHT:
Post players A1 and B1 begin punching each other and play is stopped. Two substitutes from each team leave the bench area and come onto the court. The four substitutes: (a)do not become involved in the fight; (b)all become involved in the fight; or (c)substitutes A6, A7 and B6 do not participate in the fight, but B7 becomes involved in the fight.
RULING: A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant fouls and are disqualified, but no free throws result from the double flagrant personal fouls. The four substitutes are charged with flagrant technical fouls and are disqualified. No free throws are awarded for the simultaneous technical fouls as the number committed and the penalty are the same for both teams. In (a), one technical foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach of each team. In (b), each head coach is charged indirectly with with two technical fouls(one for each bench player leaving the bench and getting involved in the fight). In (c), the Team A head coach is charged indirectly with one technical foul and the team B head coach is indirectly charged with two technical fouls(one for substitutes B6 and B7 leaving the bench, and one for B7 becoming involved in the fight). In all situations, the ball is put in play at the point of interruption.

[Vinski]

Excellent responses all. Thanks for the clarification.

[bigdog5142]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A quick use of the search function turns up this. I think it's still correct:

Divide the participants into four categories:
A) Players on the floor who fight
B) Bench personnel who leave, but do not fight
C) Bench personnel who leave and fight
D) (Head) Coach who leaves the bench (by rule it matters not whether he fights or not; in practice if he doesn't fight, I'm considering him / her to be "beckoned")

Treat each category separately:

A) Flagrant foul for each participant; team foul for each participant; one "T to be shot" for each participant; no indirects

B) Flagrant foul for each; team foul for each; one "T to be shot" for whichever side has the fewest in this category (zero if the sides are even); one indirect, no matter how many in this category

C) Flagrant foul for each; team foul for each; one "T to be shot" for each; one indirect for each

D) Flagrant foul for each; team foul for each; one "T to be shot" for each; no indirects (since it's a direct T).

Eject all the flagrant fouls; add up all the team fouls and put them in the books; record all the indirects (EJ if >=3).

Add up all the "T to be shot" for each team. Offset what you can. Shoot the rest (if any).

Arrow if they all offset. Ball to team that shoots any free throws.

Spend rest of evening writing the report.

Best advice -- stop the fight before it happens (just as with correctable errors).

The case book seems to indicate that no matter how many players leave the bench and DO NOT fight...all players that leave the bench are disqualified, they count toward the team fouls, BUT the head coach only gets one tech and only one set of foul shots are awarded.

The difference is when they DO fight. Then it goes individually....two shots for each and indirect for each.

Offset where possible...

At least that's how I read it....

[bigdog5142]

Sorry...I misread bob's post...I just re-stated what he already said...

[bigdog5142]

However...you put the ball in play at the point of interruption...not the arrow.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

However...you put the ball in play at the point of interruption...not the arrow.

Yes -- if all the fouls (well, "Ts to be shot") offset. That's a change from when the post was first written. If one team ends up shooitng FTs, then that team also gets the ball.