Foul Count.

[JRutledge]

Now I am hearing everyone talk about how advantange/disadvantage has gone too far. I hear people complaining about that the game is too physical and getting too rough instead of a game of skill and finesse. But I have officated probably 20 games or so (had a few cancelled to weather) and in almost most of those games I have called more fouls than I could ever remember. It seems like I have gotten into the two shot bonus with at least one team in almost all of my games. The only time that did not happen that sticks out was a freshman game I did. But it seems that I and others are constantly calling fouls. And if I did not use the advantage/disadvantage principle, I might have called more.

I even went to the Proviso West Christmas Holiday Tournament and watched a few nights of the games up until the Championship game. For those that do not know this tournament is one of the most well know in the country. Because several pros have played in this tournament like Isiah Thomas and Kevin Garnett and Mark Aurguire, just to name a few. And in all these games, I cannot think of one time that one of the teams in the game and many times both teams were in the 2 shot bonus. Now these are Class AA teams (Big Schools) and have many D1 prospects on the court and probably some future NBA players after it is said and done. And because the expectation in these type of game about letting them play at this level, if advantage/disadvantage has gone to far, why are so many fouls being called.

I am asking because it seems like players are not adjusting or are we just cracking down on contact? But even saying that, I do not think I have ever called this many fouls with consistency. I usually do not get into the bonus with both teams in the second half. It could be because I have had some closer games, but am I the only one?

[BigDave]

It is a POE this year for us to "get everything". It is no secret that players are bigger, stronger and more physical. They are playing harder than ever, therefore, there are gonna be more fouls.

I just try to call what I see and let the numbers fall where they may. If one team is aggressive and plays a tight D and the other is a zone D team, the fouls are gonna be lopsided. Out of our control.

I do agree though, that we are definitely calling more fouls these days.

[JRutledge]

I know the NCAA on both men's and women's sides cracked down on off ball fouls and some on ball fouls as POE, but I do not recall NF making any kind of distiction. As a matter of fact I do not believe that "rough play" was a POE for the first time in years. Now I was at some of my officials association meetings and a couple of them played the tapes for the NCAA and gave us a heads up in that direction.

Originally posted by BigDave
It is a POE this year for us to "get everything". It is no secret that players are bigger, stronger and more physical. They are playing harder than ever, therefore, there are gonna be more fouls.

I just try to call what I see and let the numbers fall where they may. If one team is aggressive and plays a tight D and the other is a zone D team, the fouls are gonna be lopsided. Out of our control.

I do agree though, that we are definitely calling more fouls these days.

[BktBallRef]

My feeling is that you have to control play without controlling the game. If the game requires 60 fouls to be called, then call 60 fouls. If you can get by with 25, that's even better. I've had both extremes this year. We had a 1A team and a 2A team and had 62 fouls in the game. But they never adjusted. They kept pushing, setting illegal screens, handchecking and on and on. A week later, we worked a 4A game and called 17 fouls, 7 & 10, in the first half. With four minutes to go in the 4th qtr., we had called 2 fouls on each team. During a TO, a reporter on the baseline asked me, "Did you guys change the way you were calling or did they adjust?". I asked, "What do you think?". He smiled. 27 fouls for the game, as one team had to foul to put the other on the line.

Rut, you are correct that rough play is not a POE this year. But let me tell you about the POE. When I go to the state rules clinic next year, I fully intend to wear ear plugs. Our crew started the year out by calling palming and intentional fouls by the book and by what we were told at the clinic. What happened? We got complaints phoned in after almost every game. It's not unlike the MLB strike zone. It lasts long enouigh for a few managers to start cmplaining about it and it's gone. Until you can make every official in your association place the same empahsis on the annual POE, the ones who do call it will get blasted. Subsequently, we've gone back to calling both items in the same manner that we did last year.

[hoopsrefBC]

Hey, If you want to see ad/dis vantage try watching a game under FIBA rules. We in British Columbia have just moved from FIBA rules to NCAA rules. and trying to educate the players and coaches about the new rules and the interpretations to thoes rules is a challenge and a great concern.

The FIBA game is many times more physical than the NCAA or the NFHS game, for example in the FIBA game there is no such thing is hand checking. Physical play is not called, unless there is a VERY, VERY CLEAR advantage gained by the defense. The 'No blood, no foul' saying can be really taken to heart.

Regarding the NCAA M+W's concern about physical play i can see what they are trying to do. Firstly, Let the better coached, more skilled players be able to play at a higher level than less skilled, poor coaches players and secondly take the 'grey area' out of the game, or another way of saying it, have rules in place so that officials are forced to make calls.


I have officiated for 11 years (currently i'm 27) and kinda like it when i'm able to use a rule as my support when i make a call instead of my opinion or 'years of experience'.
Most coaches don't know your experiences, however they might know the rule.

For example, recently in a game a point guard was playing defence in the post. To stop the offense from obtaining the desired position, the defensive player put BOTH arms into the back of the offensive player. I immeiately called a foul. When i reported the foul, the coach asked what the player had done, i indicated the two arms placed on the offensive player with/without the ball is a foul. When he continued to question me all i responded with was. That the rule, i don't make them, just enforce them)

In years past with FIBA rules i would have to use my judgement and 'years of experience' to gauge if a foul was to be called. Now i can simply state that's a rule. and not have to justify my call.

As 4 the number of fouls. There are very few halves that go by where we don't end up shooting bonus. (mind you we do play 10 min quarters)

I can't talk about NFHS don't officiate US high school.

keep smiling
SH

[Edited by hoopsrefBC on Jan 2nd, 2001 at 12:39 AM]

[JRutledge]

Who officates 10 min quarters? NF quarters are 8 min each. How many min. are the quarters that you officiate under?

[BigDave]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I know the NCAA on both men's and women's sides cracked down on off ball fouls and some on ball fouls as POE, but I do not recall NF making any kind of distiction.

I guess I should have been more specific.

Our association stressed to us the importance of calling more fouls to take care of the rough play.

[hoopsrefBC]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Who officates 10 min quarters? NF quarters are 8 min each. How many min. are the quarters that you officiate under?

A complete read of my response would indicate that we don't use NFHS rules, but NCAA rules. Grade 8,9,10 play 8 minute quarters, and seniors grade 11,12 play 10 minute quarters.

keep smiling
SH

[commish]

Lot's of good comments on a POE (Federation rules). I prefer to think not in terms of rough play but rather "controlling" play that can lead ill will and/or rough play.
Part of the problem in our area is that most administrators were under the mistaken belief that 3-person mechanics would be THE answer to "rough play." Working 3-person mechanics correctly certainly gives officials different and better looks - officlas still have to make the calls.
In my leagues (15 high schools), we are emphasizing getting off-ball fouls: illegal screens, hand checks - "hooks to control players on routes and rebounds, etc. We are also emphasizing being excellent dead ball officials and being people watchers instead of ball watchers.
In a recent article in our local paper, Kansas Coach Roy Williams, head of the NCAA Men's Rules Committee, made the comment, "I think there is a huge burdrn on officials to call rules the way they are written and coaches not to coomplain about the way the game is called. CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOR IS THE BEST WAY TO STOP FOULING."
BTW, Coach Williams goes on to say, "The perfect game for me is to say hello (to the officials) and never speak to them the rest of the night. You want them (the officials) to be honest and work as hard as they can. Let them do their job and I'll do mine."