Pro hop Question

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

take a cookie out of petty cash

Don't you mean "cache?"

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Don't you mean "cache?"

No - I meant PETTY CASH!!!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

In my reading of all the rule book sets, high school through pro, the travel rule is the same and should be refereed as such.

The NFHS and NCAA travel rules are almost identical. But there are differences with the NBA rule. In the NBA, you are allowed to pivot at the end of a "two-count". This allows a player to use either foot as the pivot foot (with some restrictions) after landing on one foot followed by the other. In high school and college, only the first foot may be used as the pivot in that situation. Also, the NBA's two-count allows a player to pivot after completing a legal jump stop (jump off one foot and land on two feet simultaneously). In NCAA and NFHS, there is no pivot foot after completing a legal jump stop.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

In my reading of all the rule book sets, high school through pro, the travel rule is the same and should be refereed as such.

There are specific moves in that are legal under NBA rules that are illegal under NCAA and NFHS.

In NCAA and NFHS, the first foot down is automatically the pivot foot when the other foot touches the floor.

In the NBA, the first foot down may or may not be the pivot foot depending on where the 2nd foot touches....2nd in front of the first, the first is the pivot. The 2nd not in front of the first, either may be the pivot.

The NBA rule:

b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.

The interesting elements are highlighted.

In (d), the same NCAA/NFHS player can only pivot on the first foot down, they don't have a choice.

In (e), an NBA player may, after completing a jump stop, still pivot where the same move in the NCAA or NFHS is a travel.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The NFHS and NCAA travel rules are almost identical. But there are differences with the NBA rule. In the NBA, you are allowed to pivot at the end of a "two-count". This allows a player to use either foot as the pivot foot (with some restrictions) after landing on one foot followed by the other. In high school and college, only the first foot may be used as the pivot in that situation. Also, the NBA's two-count allows a player to pivot after completing a legal jump stop (jump off one foot and land on two feet simultaneously). In NCAA and NFHS, there is no pivot foot after completing a legal jump stop.

I open a window, do some other stuff, finish my reply and post it only to see that Scrapper stole the show.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There are specific moves in that are legal under NBA rules that are illegal under NCAA and NFHS.

In NCAA and NFHS, the first foot down is automatically the pivot foot when the other foot touches the floor.

In the NBA, the first foot down may or may not be the pivot foot depending on where the 2nd foot touches....2nd in front of the first, the first is the pivot. The 2nd not in front of the first, either may be the pivot.

The NBA rule:

b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.

The interesting elements are highlighted.

In (d), the same NCAA/NFHS player can only pivot on the first foot down, they don't have a choice.

In (e), an NBA player may, after completing a jump stop, still pivot where the same move in the NCAA or NFHS is a travel.

Don't worry neither you or scrapper stole the show by any means.

You're C, D, and E are not in the NBA rule book. The rule book reads verbatim:

The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultaneously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.

The second count occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touches the floor simultaneously.

A player who comes to a stop on the count of one when both feet are on the floor or touch the floor simultaneously, may pivot using either foot as his pivot. If he alights with both feet he must release the ball before either foot touches the floor.

A player who has one foot on the floor or lands with one foot first to the floor, may only pivot with that foot. Once that foot is lifted from the floor it may not return until the ball is released.

A player who jumps off one foot on the count of one may land with both feet simultaneously for count two. In this situation, the player may not pivot with either foot and if one or both feet leave the floor the ball must be released before either returns to the floor.

That is from the '06-'07 rule book.

It sounds to me alot like the high school and college rule book, but in more detail.

In my interpretation of the high school and college rule book you can still have a pivot on a jump stop it just depends on when you gather the ball. If you gather it while one foot is on the ground then you have to land with both simultaneously and you have no pivot. If you gather in mid-air, then you can land simultaneously and have a pivot or you can land with one foot followed by the other because, while you haven't gathered until you were in the air, you have not established a pivot foot.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The NFHS and NCAA travel rules are almost identical. But there are differences with the NBA rule.

The NBA has a travel rule??!!??!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

The NBA has a travel rule??!!??!!

Yup, they just don't bother to enforce it......see Patrick Ewing's whole career.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, they just don't bother to enforce it......see Patrick Ewing's whole career.

Actually, you could probably name a lot more players than just Patrick. However, one former star who almost never traveled was Clyde Drexler. The locals used to comment about it. On the flip side, Drexler really played most of his career out of position. He played shooting guard but his skills were much more suited to those of a shooting forward. His ball handling skills left much to be desired. In fact, he is probably the only NBA guard I can remember who had to look at the ball when dribbling! Having said all that, he really was a great player and a true gentleman. The NBA could use more guys with his demeanor and class.

[Adam]

He is a lousy dancer, though. Not that I watched Dancing With the Stars: my wife told me about it.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

A player who comes to a stop on the count of one when both feet are on the floor or touch the floor simultaneously, may pivot using either foot as his pivot. If he alights with both feet he must release the ball before either foot touches the floor.

A player who has one foot on the floor or lands with one foot first to the floor, may only pivot with that foot. Once that foot is lifted from the floor it may not return until the ball is released.

A player who jumps off one foot on the count of one may land with both feet simultaneously for count two. In this situation, the player may not pivot with either foot and if one or both feet leave the floor the ball must be released before either returns to the floor.

That is from the '06-'07 rule book.

Wow! That's an eye-opener. This was not the rule as recently as 3 or 4 years ago. I agree with you that the rule you've quoted sounds very much like the NCAA/NFHS rule. Do you know when this version of the traveling rule was instituted?

And I'm not doubting you, but the rule you quoted is not the rule as it appears on the NBA.com website. I realize that updating the online rulebook is not the NBA's #1 priority, but it differs from what you've posted above.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Wow! That's an eye-opener. This was not the rule as recently as 3 or 4 years ago. I agree with you that the rule you've quoted sounds very much like the NCAA/NFHS rule. Do you know when this version of the traveling rule was instituted?

And I'm not doubting you, but the rule you quoted is not the rule as it appears on the NBA.com website. I realize that updating the online rulebook is not the NBA's #1 priority, but it differs from what you've posted above.

And furthermore, even if the rule as written is the same word for word, it's interpreted and called much differently. So if a kid does something in HS that is called a travel in any HS game anywhere, and then says, "Well, they get away with that all the time in the NBA" I'm supposed to say, uh, "Yea the rules are exactly the same, but I'm just feeling dorky today?"

No, the fact of the matter is that if you look at how the rules are interpreted and called, not just the writing of the rule book itself, they are much different, and saying they're the same does a disservice to officiating at all levels.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

And furthermore, even if the rule as written is the same word for word, it's interpreted and called much differently. So if a kid does something in HS that is called a travel in any HS game anywhere, and then says, "Well, they get away with that all the time in the NBA" I'm supposed to say...

..."look me up when we're both in the NBA and we'll discuss."

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

And furthermore, even if the rule as written is the same word for word, it's interpreted and called much differently. So if a kid does something in HS that is called a travel in any HS game anywhere, and then says, "Well, they get away with that all the time in the NBA" I'm supposed to say, uh, "Yea the rules are exactly the same, but I'm just feeling dorky today?"

No, you tell the kid when he gets to the NBA and he's making a million dollars, he can do that, but right now in HS, it's a travel.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Old School

No, you tell the kid when he gets to the NBA and he's making a million dollars, he can do that, but right now in HS, it's a travel.

If he gets to the NBA and all he's making is one million, he needs a new agent.