Crowd (spectator) Technical

[Cleefy]

I was umpiring a Under 10 girls grand final, (under fiba rules), and I called a blocking foul on a girl, for stepping sideways, into the dribbler, with her legs wider then her shoulders (cylinder principal). At which point, the girls Mother, and two brothers start screaming down my throat. A few curse words were thrown in, before the big, 'bomb' in my opinion. The mother stood up, and said "She wasn't even moving, and her legs weren't that wide, get your eyes checked, you silly old sod". At this point, I blew my fox mini, and teched the bench of that team - although I hadn't given a previous warning. At my association, we are allowed to tech spectators for disputing decisions.

I'm after your opinion on the matter,

Thanks. Cleefy.

[TRef21]

Good Situation for you. I would find the game manager and have the spectator(s) escorted for the confines. Under NCAA rules anindirect techincal foul is assesed to the team for spectator behavior.

[Mregor]

Mregor

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

I was umpiring a Under 10 girls grand final, (under fiba rules), and I called a blocking foul on a girl, for stepping sideways, into the dribbler, with her legs wider then her shoulders (cylinder principal). At which point, the girls Mother, and two brothers start screaming down my throat. A few curse words were thrown in, before the big, 'bomb' in my opinion. The mother stood up, and said "She wasn't even moving, and her legs weren't that wide, get your eyes checked, you silly old sod". At this point, I blew my fox mini, and teched the bench of that team - although I hadn't given a previous warning. At my association, we are allowed to tech spectators for disputing decisions.

I'm after your opinion on the matter,

Thanks. Cleefy.

Congrats on being assigned the final game of the season/tournament, and congrats on calling was appears to be (based on your description) the proper call. In my mind, these spectators ejected themselves at either the blue or red points, in that order. If not at the blue point, definitely at the red point.

As for giving a technical foul on the team, unless there is a strong point of emphasis (perhaps with a specific directive) within your local association, I would try to stay away from such behavoir. (Years ago in my local board, there was a provincial directive of zero tolerance. Not all areas abided by it, but my local board did. It's amazing what happens when unsportmanship is taken out of the game!) So just have game management escort the culprits out of the gym and do not start the game until they are 100% out of the gym.

[Mark Padgett]

Did she really say "you silly old sod"? Only in a place using FEEBLE rules, I'm sure.

In this kind of a tournament, make the coach responsible for his/her spectators. Tell the coach to get the persons to leave and that if it doesn't happen quickly, the game is forfeit. Believe me, that really gets some action.

[Texas Aggie]

I don't know FIBA rules, but I'm never in favor of giving Ts on fan behavior. Get 'em out. I think that says a lot more and doesn't penalize those who aren't at fault.

I don't agree, even at younger ages, that the coach has FULL responsibility for fans or even parents' actions. I can see that in some cases, but the coach can't babysit 50 people sitting in the stands and still be an effective coach. I think that's unreasonable.

[Nevadaref]

I'm of the opinion that at the HS level and below that if a spectator has to be removed from the facility that there should be some penalty for the team.

Something must be done to put a stop to the egregious unsporting behavior. There is no better way to punish the parents than to have their poor behavior hurt their kids' team.

[just another ref]

The officials shall penalize unsporting conduct by any player, coach, substitute, team attendant, or follower.

NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can be reasonably be expected to control the spectators.
The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management.

The younger the players, the more I would take the red line to heart. Just have 'em thrown out. If game management refuses to back you up, then do what you have to do.

[JRutledge]

I would not call a T on a spectator for the main reason that it is hard to always tell who is responsible for such an action. Not all fans of the same team sit in the same area. And I do not think it is right to penalize players and coaches for people they do not control. Not to say that I would never do so, but it is definitely pretty close to "never" in my philosophy of this rule.

Just get rid of the perpetrators and move on. You might penalize the wrong team for fans that do not represent them.

Peace

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would not call a T on a spectator for the main reason that it is hard to always tell who is responsible for such an action. Not all fans of the same team sit in the same area. And I do not think it is right to penalize players and coaches for people they do not control. Not to say that I would never do so, but it is definitely pretty close to "never" in my philosophy of this rule.

Just get rid of the perpetrators and move on. You might penalize the wrong team for fans that do not represent them.

Peace

This is something I would agree with 100%.

[Adam]

I agree with the Juggler, they earned their trip to the minivan. I'd give the coach a chance to give them a code red before the T comes out, but that's here and with my association. I can also state that, for the most part, I've not worked a game where the management wouldn't have been on the spot before I had a chance; even AAU.
Hold that. Did you say 10 year old girls? Holy Sh!t! That mom needs to be publicly humliated in the stockade. Short that, I'd stop the game just to have her removed. Walk to the table, call both coaches over, and tell her kid's coach that the game will be forfeit if mom isn't outside of your visual and audio range within 60 seconds. Do it loud enough for everyone to hear. She needs to be humiliated for this performance.

[Jurassic Referee]

The FED has had the same guidelines in the rules for many years, telling us how to deal with situations like this. Imo, they're valid and should be followed.

-Simply have game management remove the parent. Stop the game until that is done. If nobody from game management is present, it's the responsibility of the coach of the home team.
- Never call a technical foul on any team unless there are completely extreme circumstances. One doofus parent yapping ain't extreme circumstances. And unlike Junior, I really don't think that it's necessary to penalize a team of 10-year old girls just because one of their parents is a jerk. In AAU/rec games, you'd be T-ing up teams almost every game.The daughter of that parent has already been punished enough; she's been completely embarrassed by her mother's actions.
- If you do have extreme game problems that can't be brought under control, suspend the game rather than forfeit it. Let the proper governing body deal with the fallout. Write a complete game report and fuggedaboutit.

JMO. The FED guidelines are in the case book under 2.8.1.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would not call a T on a spectator

Even if they threw a chair?

[mick]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

I was umpiring a Under 10 girls grand final, (under fiba rules), and I called a blocking foul on a girl, for stepping sideways, into the dribbler, with her legs wider then her shoulders (cylinder principal).

I will not call a foul merely for the legs being wider than the shoulders.
If that is her normal defensive stance, the stance is legal on my floor.

Please explain the FIBA 'cylinder principle'.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's been clarified in a POE in this year's rule book , Mick. It is a foul under FED rules. That's the way that we've always taught it too.

POE3B-SCREENING: A screener must be stationary prior to contact within his/her vertical plane(hands, arms, legs and feet no more than shoulder width apart). When these two requirements are not meant, and when there is sufficient contact delivered by the screener to bump, slow or displace, it is a foul on the screener.

Thanks, but I don't think so, JR.
What about the defender ... and not a screener.
Ain't no one can play proper defense with feet no wider than the shoulders.
May as well tie their shoes together.