Crowd (spectator) Technical

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Imo you penalize the person who deserves it, not an innocent party.

That's not what the rules say!

[mick]

Originally Posted by Old School

That's not what the rules say!

Sure it does: "Penalize unsporting conduct by any... follower."

"...Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized...."

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

I was umpiring a Under 10 girls grand final, (under fiba rules), and I called a blocking foul on a girl, for stepping sideways, into the dribbler, with her legs wider then her shoulders (cylinder principal). At which point, the girls Mother, and two brothers start screaming down my throat. A few curse words were thrown in, before the big, 'bomb' in my opinion. The mother stood up, and said "She wasn't even moving, and her legs weren't that wide, get your eyes checked, you silly old sod". At this point, I blew my fox mini, and teched the bench of that team - although I hadn't given a previous warning. At my association, we are allowed to tech spectators for disputing decisions.

I'm after your opinion on the matter,

Thanks. Cleefy.

Cleefy, after reading all of the replies here. I find it amazing that no one has mentioned this. You called a block and you stood around to listen to all this from a fan. What might help you in the future is to put the ball back in play, and continue on with the game. That way, you moved down the court away from the fan and hopefully you can't hear what the fan is saying. You made a correct block call, put the ball back in play. Fans can yap, yap, yap, all they want, it's not going to change anything.

By moving the game along, they will eventually get over it because something else will happen and they are on to something else. The key here to me is to let the fan dig their own grave by establishing a pattern. If, after several trips up and down the court fan A is still having issues. This person is going to be a problem for your game and you will need to deal with them, as in any problem person/player in your game.

What has already been stated here is the best, and to add to it. When you start talking about giving a T to the team. If the fan is directly behind the bench, then you can go to the coach and warn them that this fan is about to get you a T. Then the coach can address it. However, if the fan is across the court on other side, the coach or team may have no knowledge of what's going on or plead stupid. Then you will need to deal with the fan. One more thing, that was bad advice to go try to embarrass a mother or fan like what the one post suggested. Never engage in this type of response. One reason is parents maybe new to this (10th grade girls) and they will need to learn just like at one point in time we as officials where new to this. Give that great personally of yours a chance to remedy the problem before you start ejecting people out the gym. That's enough, follow by a stop sign hand signal, works great for me. If the mom runs thru that stop sign, you have now proof that you tried to deal with it and now she can deal with her issues outside this gym because she's not watching the rest of this game.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by mick

Sure it does: "Penalize unsporting conduct by any... follower."

"...Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized...."

That is my point....

[mick]

Originally Posted by Old School

That is my point....

Oh, my !
Not even close.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Sure did. Also disagreed with your personal philosophy as previously posted.

That's fine. I can respect that.

Furthermore, since the NFHS has clearly stated that they do not want us to impose our personal philosophies upon the games, I don't employ mine when working HS games and issue technical fouls to spectators, except for under the most extreme of circumstances.

However, I am certainly entitled to have my own opinion and to express it when someone posts a question which inquires about it.

I do think that sporting behavior would be better, if the NFHS adopted my personal philosophy on this, and if I were asked to draft rules for a youth rec league, I would certainly make it so that if any parent from a team had to be removed that the team was also charged with a team technical foul.
I feel that would provide an effective deterrent to poor behavior from the parents.

As always that's JMO and you are free to disagree.

Have a nice day.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I do think that sporting behavior would be better, if the NFHS adopted my personal philosophy on this........

You mean to say that you think all the parents would be aware of such a rule change and would adjust their behavior accordingly? There is one guy around here, that back when his kids were playing, every time the whistle would blow, would stand up and take a few steps down the stairs toward the court, like he was going to do....... one might only guess what. I have heard that this guy talks about "being ejected from every gym in the country," and seems to see this as something of which to be proud. When you take a guy like this, and he is not the only one, I don't believe the fear of a technical foul will clean up his act.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You mean to say that you think all the parents would be aware of such a rule change and would adjust their behavior accordingly? There is one guy around here, that back when his kids were playing, every time the whistle would blow, would stand up and take a few steps down the stairs toward the court, like he was going to do....... one might only guess what. I have heard that this guy talks about "being ejected from every gym in the country," and seems to see this as something of which to be proud. When you take a guy like this, and he is not the only one, I don't believe the fear of a technical foul will clean up his act.

Just because you can come up with one exceptional example where NevadaRef's philosophy probably won't work doesn't mean that he isn't generally correct.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Just because you can come up with one exceptional example where NevadaRef's philosophy probably won't work doesn't mean that he isn't generally correct.

This whole debate is about exceptional examples. The only fans we need to have this debate about (call a t or just kick 'em out) must all be exceptional examples of bad behavior.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JustAnotherRef:

NFHS R2-S8-A1 does not apply to this game. The rule that does apply is FIBA R6-A38.3.2, which states: "A technical foul by a coach, assistant coach, subsitute or team follower is a foul for disrespectfully communicating or touching the officials, the commissioner, the table officials or opponents, or infraction of a procedural or adminstrative nature."

Article 4.2 (FIBA) says that "team followers" are people allowed to sit on the team's bench, so spectators are not team followers. Moreover, article 38.2.5 says:

All other areas, including entrances, exits, hallways, dressing rooms, etc., come under the jurisdiction of the organising body of the competition and the public order enforcement officers.

Those areas are not under the official's jurisdiction. There is no "crowd technical" in FIBA, unless local rules make provision for it.

Ciao

[bbref]

AS a new official this is one of the situations I fear the most. The Middle School games I have been to always have a Deputy Sherriff at therm. If I was 100% certain who the culprit was I would point them out to him, if not, I would ask him to watch a certain area the ruckus was coming from and address that area if necessary escorting them from the gymn. I would let him know that the next time technical fouls would be given and to give that tidbit of info to the spectators involved.
Last year at my daughters Middle School game one of her team mates was aassessed with a foul. This palyer became so upset the coach had to call a timeout. In the meantime the player's father came out and stood at center court yelling at the official. Nothing was done. After the game the father walked all the way over to the official again and starting chewing him out again. I think the best policy is to nip it in the bud!!

Just my $.02