Crowd (spectator) Technical

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Mick, I'm telling you how the rules say to call it. It's completely up to you whether you follow them.

Guarding and screening use completely different criteria, rules-wise. For instance, you don't have to be stationary while guarding.

Isn't guarding what they are talking about?

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Isn't guarding what they are talking about?

Who knows ?
Everything is upside-down down under.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Isn't guarding what they are talking about?

Yeah, I read it wrong.

Silly monkey.

Nevermind.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mick

[/B]

Thanks, but I don't think so, JR.
What about the defender ... and not a screener.
Ain't no one can play proper defense with feet no wider than the shoulders.
May as well tie their shoes together.

You're right, Mick. I read it wrong. The call depends on where the contact occurs. Assuming LGP, generally on the torso--->charge. Outside the torso--->block.

[Adam]

Yabut, what if the contact is on the turso? I'm so confused.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yabut, what if the contact is on the turso? I'm so confused.

It's a bluck.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The officials shall penalize unsporting conduct by any player, coach, substitute, team attendant, or follower.

NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can be reasonably be expected to control the spectators.
The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management.

The younger the players, the more I would take the red line to heart. Just have 'em thrown out. If game management refuses to back you up, then do what you have to do.

JustAnotherRef:

NFHS R2-S8-A1 does not apply to this game. The rule that does apply is FIBA R6-A38.3.2, which states: "A technical foul by a coach, assistant coach, subsitute or team follower is a foul for disrespectfully communicating or touching the officials, the commissioner, the table officials or opponents, or infraction of a procedural or adminstrative nature."

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JustAnotherRef:

NFHS R2-S8-A1 does not apply to this game. The rule that does apply is FIBA R6-A38.3.2, which states: "A technical foul by a coach, assistant coach, subsitute or team follower is a foul for disrespectfully communicating or touching the officials, the commissioner, the table officials or opponents, or infraction of a procedural or adminstrative nature."

MTD, Sr.

I would say most under 10 girls games, no matter what rules you play by, sometimes you have to improvise a bit. I merely quoted this rule as what I perceive to be a sound principle.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would not call a T on a spectator for the main reason that it is hard to always tell who is responsible for such an action. Not all fans of the same team sit in the same area. And I do not think it is right to penalize players and coaches for people they do not control. Not to say that I would never do so, but it is definitely pretty close to "never" in my philosophy of this rule.

Just get rid of the perpetrators and move on. You might penalize the wrong team for fans that do not represent them.

But, Rut, by your logic you could "pretty close to never" have anyone removed from gym because "it is hard to always tell who is responsible for such an action."

In short, your willingness to have people removed because of their poor behavior, but unwillingness to charge a technical foul doesn't make sense.

If you are certain enough about whom to attribute the comment or actions to have them removed, then you are also certain enough to assess a penalty against a team.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In short, your willingness to have people removed because of their poor behavior, but unwillingness to charge a technical foul doesn't make sense.

Yeah, I guess it only makes sense to Jeff.....and the people who wrote NFHS rule 2-8-1 and NFHS case book play 2.8.1......and the officials who follow the direction of the rules and case book. Silly monkeys.

Sample verbiage out of 2.8.1....
-"Thus, while officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, this must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has shown that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem....."
- This may require the removal of a team follower(s). This can be done without charging the supporters' team with a technical foul. The advised procedure is for the official to to notify game management as to which follower(s) must be removed from the site."
- If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items , the official should instruct game management to have the supporter(s) removed from the site. As in the previous case, this can be done without charging the supporter(s) team with a technical foul,"

It kinda seems that Jeff's philosophy is pretty close to the NFHS philosophy. Of course, Jeff probably only has access to the rule and case books printed by the FED. Maybe you could send him a copy of the The Junior Rules(tm).

Jeff said "Just get rid of the perpetrators and move on." Good advice imo.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jeff said "Just get rid of the perpetrators and move on." Good advice imo.

Agreed. And I'd add that the "rules" are often different for "rec league" games -- and that's what I'[d assuma an <10 game equates to. Here, sometimes (often?) the coaches are responsible for the behavior of teh fans and a T is appropriate *under the rules of that league*. That's what Cleefy seemed to imply (or at least what I inferred from his post).

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Cleefy

I was umpiring a Under 10 girls grand final, (under fiba rules), and I called a blocking foul on a girl, for stepping sideways, into the dribbler, with her legs wider then her shoulders (cylinder principal). At which point, the girls Mother, and two brothers start screaming down my throat. A few curse words were thrown in, before the big, 'bomb' in my opinion. The mother stood up, and said "She wasn't even moving, and her legs weren't that wide, get your eyes checked, you silly old sod". At this point, I blew my fox mini, and teched the bench of that team - although I hadn't given a previous warning. At my association, we are allowed to tech spectators for disputing decisions.

I'm after your opinion on the matter,

Yeah, I hate being call a "sod."

I think the fact that you're asking makes it evident that you wished you had handled it differently.

Had it been me and I thought their behavior crossed the line, I would have asked game management to remove them from the facility.

But penalize the team because fans yelled at me? No. Never.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In short, your willingness to have people removed because of their poor behavior, but unwillingness to charge a technical foul doesn't make sense.

I realize we disagree on interps from time to time but...have you lost your mind? You're going to penalize a team of 10 year olds because one of their team moms called you a sod? GMAFB!

[BillyMac]

From Jurassic Referee: "Sample verbiage out of 2.8.1: Thus, while officials do have the authority to penalize a team whose spectators interfere with the proper conduct of the game, this must be used with extreme caution and discretion. While the authority is there, the official must rarely use it, because experience has shown that calling hasty technical fouls on the crowd rarely solves the problem. This may require the removal of a team follower(s). This can be done without charging the supporters' team with a technical foul. The advised procedure is for the official to to notify game management as to which follower(s) must be removed from the site. If the official has positive knowledge as to which supporter(s) threw the items , the official should instruct game management to have the supporter(s) removed from the site. As in the previous case, this can be done without charging the supporter(s) team with a technical foul."

Everytime I read this citation, I think about the remote possibility that a fan of Team A might "pretend" to be a fan of Team B and do something unsportsmanlike to get some fouls shots for his "real" team and get an indirect technical foul on the "real" opposing coach. I know that it's a remote possibility, but it has guided me throughout my 26 years of officiating to occassionally ask to have a spectator removed, or at least spoken to by the site supervisor, but to never call a technical foul on the spectator.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Everytime I read this citation, I think about the remote possibility that a fan of Team A might "pretend" to be a fan of Team B and do something unsportsmanlike to get some fouls shots for his "real" team and get an indirect technical foul on the "real" opposing coach. I know that it's a remote possibility, but it has guided me throughout my 26 years of officiating to occasionally ask to have a spectator removed, or at least spoken to by the site supervisor, but to never call a technical foul on the spectator.

I've removed many a fan over the years, Billy. Never dreamed of calling a "T" and probably never will.

Imo you penalize the person who deserves it, not an innocent party.