Bounce pass to self

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by mick

Basketball rule fundamental #19 -> the backboard [except thrower's backboard] is treated the same as the floor inbunds.

Case 9.5 situation [substituting word *floor* for *backboard* (per fundamental #19)] Player ends dribble. Throwing the ball against *floor* or an official constitutes another dribble, provided thrower is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the *floor*.

Mick, while I agree with the overall result of your interpretation, I don't think you can just substitute floor in for a case that is treated as a backboard play.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm going to try to paint one more picture.

A1 and B1 isolated on one side of the court. The game is on tv, and no one else is even in the picture. A1 drives baseline and pulls up to shoot. B1 hustles to contest the shot, but slips and falls. A1 sees a clear path to the basket and momentarily loses his mind. He pushes the ball straight down to the floorand starts to take a step to the goal. Then, he quickly realizes his mistake, throws up his hands, turns his back, and yells, "Oh, shucks!" Am I the only one here that thinks this is a violation?

I have my doubts (particularly because the beginning of 4-15 is rather broadly worded), but for now I'm going to go with the crowd and say it's not a violation until A1 touches the ball on the upswing.

The problem with reading the rule literally is that a bounce pass, after ending a dribble, is technically prohibited.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm going to try to paint one more picture.

A1 and B1 isolated on one side of the court. The game is on tv, and no one else is even in the picture. A1 drives baseline and pulls up to shoot. B1 hustles to contest the shot, but slips and falls. A1 sees a clear path to the basket and momentarily loses his mind. He pushes the ball straight down to the floorand starts to take a step to the goal. Then, he quickly realizes his mistake, throws up his hands, turns his back, and yells, "Oh, shucks!" Am I the only one here that thinks this is a violation?

Yes.

Do you see anyone else rushing in to agree with you? Has anyone agreed with you to date in this thread? Doesn't that maybe tell you something?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm going to try to paint one more picture.

A1 and B1 isolated on one side of the court. The game is on tv, and no one else is even in the picture. A1 drives baseline and pulls up to shoot. B1 hustles to contest the shot, but slips and falls. A1 sees a clear path to the basket and momentarily loses his mind. He pushes the ball straight down to the floorand starts to take a step to the goal. Then, he quickly realizes his mistake, throws up his hands, turns his back, and yells, "Oh, shucks!" Am I the only one here that thinks this is a violation?

Yes, apparently.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm going to try to paint one more picture.

A1 and B1 isolated on one side of the court. The game is on tv, and no one else is even in the picture. A1 drives baseline and pulls up to shoot. B1 hustles to contest the shot, but slips and falls. A1 sees a clear path to the basket and momentarily loses his mind. He pushes the ball straight down to the floorand starts to take a step to the goal. Then, he quickly realizes his mistake, throws up his hands, turns his back, and yells, "Oh, shucks!" Am I the only one here that thinks this is a violation?

That's the easiest question you've asked all week. The answer is yes.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Mick, while I agree with the overall result of your interpretation, I don't think you can just substitute floor in for a case that is treated as a backboard play.

Opponents backboard is the same as the floor. I don't see understand your problem.

[rainmaker]

J.A.R. -- I e-mailed my assignor who is also our state rules interpreter, who also used to be on the NFHS rules committee, the nationally renowned Howard Mayo, and he said,

"Two things that occur to me: A1 completes her dribble - drops the ball but does not touch it - legal - You could also rule that it was a bounce pass to a teammate or you could also rule a fumble."

In other words, it's not a dribble unless the player touches it after it has bounced on the floor. Notice that the word "intent" appears nowhere.

[just another ref]

4.15.4 Situation A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4.15.4 Situation A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

With any luck, you'll be able to talk Old School into agreeing with you.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

4.15.4 Situation A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

And way back in post #88, I cited two case plays, which stated the opposite. I think that you are better off having a slow whistle on these plays.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1's hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces. RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

4.44.3 SITUATION B: A1 receives the ball with both feet off the floor and he/she lands simultaneously on both feet without establishing a pivot foot. A1 then jumps off both feet in an attempt to try for goal, but realizing the shot may be blocked, A1 drops the ball to the floor and dribbles. RULING: A1 has traveled as one foot must be considered to be the pivot and must be on the floor when the ball is released to start a dribble. The fact that no pivot foot had been established does not alter this ruling.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And way back in post #88, I cited two case plays, which stated the opposite. I think that you are better off having a slow whistle on these plays.

The two plays you refer to deal with a player whose first intention was clearly not to dribble. The plays I am trying to describe involve a player who undeniably is starting a dribble which happens to be illegal. A slow whistle is okay with me, on this play or any play, but I fail to see how a whistle when the ball hits the floor in the plays I described can be considered wrong. In any case, if you consider the two case play rulings to be opposite, how could either interpretation be totally wrong?

[Nevadaref]

Case plays have been known to contradict each other. There are a couple of reasons for this.
a. When a new case play is added the editor and current members of the rules committee often don't make an exhaustive, or even accurate, search of existing play rulings which will be affected.
b. As the years go by the committee members change and these individuals have different opinions on certain situations. When a new group of individuals adds a new case play, it may not match up with what was previously written.
c. We know what year rule changes were made, but it is more difficult to pinpoint the year in which certain case plays were first published. This makes it nearly impossible to know which one should have priority when they disagree. As the years pass, no one other than MTD, can tell you which came first.
d. The game evolves and certain actions that once were rare become common. Players use different tactics and the officials and rules makers must learn to cope with them. Sometimes the older language in the books isn't well-suited to handle the newer practices.

You have certainly found something in one of the books published by the NFHS which obviously supports your position. However, it is possible that the author of that case play did not intend it to be used in a wider context. That author may not have envisioned what an official should do if a player in this situation were to bounce the ball between his legs to a trailing teammate.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You have certainly found something in one of the books published by the NFHS which obviously supports your position. However, it is possible that the author of that case play did not intend it to be used in a wider context.

My whole argument is not based on a case play, but on the definition of a dribble: a player.......pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

When the ball hits the floor, that can be considered a dribble whether it touches the player's hand again or not. What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My whole argument is not based on a case play, but on the definition of a dribble: a player.......pushes the ball to the floor once or several times.

When the ball hits the floor, that can be considered a dribble whether it touches the player's hand again or not. What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."

That's a legitimate question. That and what if the defender fouls the offensive player during this same time frame (the time between after the ball has struck the floor, but prior to the offensive player touching it again)?

Certainly there is a need to know the exact point at which the violation occurs. The case play which you have cited provides the best clarification which I have seen. Of course, player control is of primary concern. If at any point the official deems that player control has ceased, then there is no longer a dribbler.

I can create a scenario in which a player who has already dribbled tosses the ball out in front of him several feet and then takes off after it, but before reaching it an opponent fouls this player. What should an official do?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

J.A.R. -- I e-mailed my assignor who is also our state rules interpreter, who also used to be on the NFHS rules committee, the nationally renowned Howard Mayo, and he said,

"Two things that occur to me: A1 completes her dribble - drops the ball but does not touch it - legal - You could also rule that it was a bounce pass to a teammate or you could also rule a fumble."

In other words, it's not a dribble unless the player touches it after it has bounced on the floor. Notice that the word "intent" appears nowhere.

I appreciate your efforts but I think the play I have been describing differs greatly. When the phrase "drops the ball" is used, we must indeed wait to see what happens next.

If you get a chance, e-mail this one to him and see what he says:

Player A1 forgets he has already used his dribble. He pushes the ball straight down to the floor. Defender B1 slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
Would you give the ball back to the offense citing "That might have been a pass."??