Bounce pass to self

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I thought I posted this yesterday, but now I can't find it. I asked our local commissioner, who is also our state rules interpreter, who was at one time on the NFHS rules committee, about this debate, and here's his reply.

A1 completes her dribble - drops the ball but does not touch it - legal - You could also rule that it was a bounce pass to a teammate or you could also rule a fumble.

That seems pretty clear to me. It's not a dribble, unless she touches it again, after the bounce.

If you rule it a fumble, it is still not a violation if she does touch it again after the bounce. This says to me that another touch, in and of itself, is not the determining factor for what is a dribble. If we must determine what is a pass and what is a fumble, why is it unthinkable that we can determine what is a pass and what is the start of a dribble?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Please: let's try to stay on-topic, and leave the Larry Craig jokes for another thread.

I know I risk getting OS'ed for this, but it's too funny to pass up.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5oU1l7mbTuQ

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I thought I posted this yesterday, but now I can't find it. I asked our local commissioner, who is also our state rules interpreter, who was at one time on the NFHS rules committee, about this debate, and here's his reply.

A1 completes her dribble - drops the ball but does not touch it - legal - You could also rule that it was a bounce pass to a teammate or you could also rule a fumble.

That seems pretty clear to me. It's not a dribble, unless she touches it again, after the bounce.

I'm sorry, but this is as clear as mud to me.

Of course I don't know what you asked but I suspect you could have worded it to get back a simple yes or no, as opposed to this.

Not that I'm waiting for your guy's answer to validate my opinion or change my mind of course. Just not seeing this as a clearcut response.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If we must determine what is a pass and what is a fumble, why is it unthinkable that we can determine what is a pass and what is the start of a dribble?

It's unthinkable because you want to call a violation without waiting to see if it actually was a pass, fumble or the start of a dribble.

Note the "you" and not the "we".....

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you rule it a fumble, it is still not a violation if she does touch it again after the bounce. This says to me that another touch, in and of itself, is not the determining factor for what is a dribble. If we must determine what is a pass and what is a fumble, why is it unthinkable that we can determine what is a pass and what is the start of a dribble?

My understanding of what Howard meant (and remember, I know him, and I've been arguing rules with him for years), is that you can't tell what it is until you see what happens next. So it's not automatically a dribble or a pass or anything. You have to wait and see.

But just to be sure I'm right, (remember, I've been arguing rules iwth him for years, and I don't always understand him correctly!!) I'll risk annoying him just as he's assigning me all the great games I want, and e-mail him again and double check.

[just another ref]

I posted this yesterday. Perhaps you did not see it JR.

What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."??

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I posted this yesterday. Perhaps you did not see it JR.

What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."??

I'm not JR but I do play one on TV.

The answer is yes. I think you originally posted the question as B1 steals the ball. In that case it's B's ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I'm not JR but I do play one on TV.

The answer is yes. I think you originally posted the question as B1 steals the ball. In that case it's B's ball.

I simply don't get this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I posted this yesterday. Perhaps you did not see it JR.

What it the defender slaps the ball out of bounds on its return flight straight up toward the illegal dribbler's hand?
You gonna give the ball back to the offense, citing "That might have been a pass."??

I saw it. It wasn't worth responding to then and it isn't really worth a response now either.

If it'll make you happy though.......

If any player slaps a live ball OOB, the ball is dead and the non-violating team will get the ball OOB at the closest spot to the violation for a throw-in. Do you need me to cite the rule numbers for that also?

[just another ref]

So in a nutshell: A dribble is not a dribble until it returns from the floor to touch the dribbler's hand again.

There is nothing in any book which states this directly.

Case book plays vary from one case to the next on whether the second touch is needed to complete the play.


Can anyone dispute this?

[just another ref]

Tonight we had our sign up meeting. I posed the following question for 5 guys:

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

First guy shrugged. "I don't know. When it hits the floor, I guess."
Second guy said, "I don't know, good question."
The other three guys were in a group. One immediately said, "When it hits his hand." Another shook his head. "No, it would be before that, when it hits the floor." The remaining guy merely nodded. The "hits his hand" guy and the "good question" guy contemplated briefly and then agreed that it would indeed be when it hit the floor.

The thing I got from all these guys was an overriding "never thought about it what difference does it make" sentiment. This supports the idea which someone posted (a hundred posts ago) that if the call is recognized when the ball hits the floor, by the time the whistle sounds, it would most often be back in the dribbler's hand anyway. With all this in mind I am going to pay attention to this call this year and try to notice, if possible, when the official starts to make the call.

No matter how crazy one may be perceived to be by one's surrounding group, there is certainly some degree of security in numbers.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Tonight we had our sign up meeting. I posed the following question for 5 guys:

A1 has used his dribble. He stands holding the ball. He forgets and pushes the ball to the floor. Specifically when does an illegal dribble violation occur?

a. when it leaves his hand
b. when it hits the floor
c. when it hits his hand for a second time
d. some other time

First guy shrugged. "I don't know. When it hits the floor, I guess."
Second guy said, "I don't know, good question."
The other three guys were in a group. One immediately said, "When it hits his hand." Another shook his head. "No, it would be before that, when it hits the floor." The remaining guy merely nodded. The "hits his hand" guy and the "good question" guy contemplated briefly and then agreed that it would indeed be when it hit the floor.

The thing I got from all these guys was an overriding "never thought about it what difference does it make" sentiment. This supports the idea which someone posted (a hundred posts ago) that if the call is recognized when the ball hits the floor, by the time the whistle sounds, it would most often be back in the dribbler's hand anyway. With all this in mind I am going to pay attention to this call this year and try to notice, if possible, when the official starts to make the call.

No matter how crazy one may be perceived to be by one's surrounding group, there is certainly some degree of security in numbers.

Well, it doesn't matter how many agree, it matters who they are and what their authority is. The question of when the violation occurs isn't decided by majority. On the other hand (depending on which one was holding the ball I suppose), if everyone in your area calls it that way, you have to, too. On the third hand, tell me where that is so I can remember not to work there.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef,

We make judgments from the time we walk on the floor until the time we leave. In this case, I'm not judging what he intended to do. I'm judging what he did. In JAR's original play, I have to make a judgment (Not really because JAR told me he was dribbling). Was he dribbling or was he shooting? Honestly, I can't believe that you and Woody truly believe that the officials on this board can't judge the difference in a dribble and a pass.

I plucked this from a seven page discussion we had about a different illegal dribble situation last year. Even though it is taken slightly out of context, I find it startlingly significant.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I plucked this from a seven page discussion we had about a different illegal dribble situation last year. Even though it is taken slightly out of context, I find it startlingly significant.

You're becoming startlingly scary, going back a year to find a statement to take out of context to try and bolster your fantasy. Let it die. Bottom line...no one here agrees with you.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I thought I posted this yesterday, but now I can't find it. I asked our local commissioner, who is also our state rules interpreter, who was at one time on the NFHS rules committee, about this debate, and here's his reply.

A1 completes her dribble - drops the ball but does not touch it - legal - You could also rule that it was a bounce pass to a teammate or you could also rule a fumble.

That seems pretty clear to me. It's not a dribble, unless she touches it again, after the bounce.

I'm sure that he's a nice guy, but I've never understood this hero worship of Howard Mayo. FWIW my state rules interpreter is a current member of the NFHS rules committee. That doesn't mean that he knows the answer to every rules question or that anyone has to agree with what he says.

BTW what Howard wrote above about calling this a fumble is incorrect. The player in question did not lose control of the ball accidently. Therefore this doesn't meet the definition of a fumble. In this case the player purposely dropped the ball. As I stated in an earlier post the ruling for case play 4.44.3 Situation A part (d) tells us that this is, in fact, the start of a dribble.