time out after made basket Question

[jmaellis]

This is where the problem really started:

Originally Posted by todd pen

Ok thats great! So again I was correct and the ref was not as our team had secured the ball and was attempting to inbound the ball. I had the ball in my hands and was OOB ready to make a throw in.
So I do not understand your post if you are suggesting something other than what was already stated.
BTW we do use NFHS rules.

Todd Pen initiated the conflict and chose to spar with a prolific wordsmith. Todd Pen egged on Nevada, and Nevada took the bait .. oh well, Todd Pen got what he deserved; but so did Nevada, his conduct boiled over an already simmering pot.

With that said, I like to offer an observation. I have noticed during the short period of time reading, learning and posting on this forum that certain officials have no tolerance for those that do not know as much as they do, or just don't understand a particular rule/situation. Some consider any disagreement or dissent to their rational a direct attack upon their knowledge; they lash out, sometimes unnecessarily in a demeaning/indignant manner. This is especially true when it involves a non-official.

Additionally, from what I have observed so far, there does seem to be a "circling of the wagons" mentality among some basketball officials. Any challenge to their knowledge or judgment results in a swift condemnation of the "accuser" as ignorant or ill informed (whether it be an inexperienced official or a coach/player/fan). These officials often seem unwilling to acknowledge their own deficiencies or the apparent deficiencies of other officials. Excuses are abundant; "You didn't see what the official saw"; "The official this or the official that"'; or "I wasn't there." Rarely is there any acknowledgment that the official was wrong or might have been wrong and should have done a better job. These officials are completely incapable of accepting any criticism, whether it be of themselves of other officials and have no tolerance for anybody who is not as knowledgeable or informed as they are.

There are those that have many excuses as to why their or another official's misconduct, lack of judgment, lack or rule knowledge, or poor attitude should be tolerated or ignored. "Get over it and play on"; or "Any deficiency on the part of an official is unlikely to effect he end result of a game."; Don't criticize me unless you are willing to fill my shoes." These type of comments are just rhetoric. IMO this type of attitude is a discredit to all officials and reinforces already negative stereotypes that officials are unapproachable and/or unwilling to acknowledge their own shortcomings.

So anyway, this is all, of course, just my .02 that I thought I would share.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

Excuses are abundant; "I wasn't there."

I don't think it's fair to lump this in with the rest of the "excuses". Whenever there is a question that involves a judgment call, it's eminently fair to not be able to comment helpfully without having "been there" to see how something happened.

And no, I'm not attacking you. I'm just trying to point out a legitimate response. FWIW, I thought you had some good comments.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

With that said, I like to offer an observation. I have noticed during the short period of time reading, learning and posting on this forum that certain officials have no tolerance for those that do not know as much as they do, or just don't understand a particular rule/situation. Some consider any disagreement or dissent to their rational a direct attack upon their knowledge; they lash out, sometimes unnecessarily in a demeaning/indignant manner. This is especially true when it involves a non-official.

I disagree. Could you provide some examples of when someone is treated poorly for merely not understanding the rules?

Originally Posted by jmaellis

Additionally, from what I have observed so far, there does seem to be a "circling of the wagons" mentality among some basketball officials. Any challenge to their knowledge or judgment results in a swift condemnation of the "accuser" as ignorant or ill informed (whether it be an inexperienced official or a coach/player/fan). These officials often seem unwilling to acknowledge their own deficiencies or the apparent deficiencies of other officials. Excuses are abundant; "You didn't see what the official saw"; "The official this or the official that"'; or "I wasn't there." Rarely is there any acknowledgment that the official was wrong or might have been wrong and should have done a better job.

I've seen this quite often actually. However, usually, we qualify any statement of "they might have missed it" with "I wasn't there" or "the actual ruling may have been different than you say it was." We aren't going to pile on an official for making a call when we have no idea what was going through his head.

Originally Posted by jmaellis

These officials are completely incapable of accepting any criticism, whether it be of themselves of other officials and have no tolerance for anybody who is not as knowledgeable or informed as they are.

I think you've completely misread what goes on here.

Originally Posted by jmaellis

There are those that have many excuses as to why their or another official's misconduct, lack of judgment, lack or rule knowledge, or poor attitude should be tolerated or ignored. "Get over it and play on"; or "Any deficiency on the part of an official is unlikely to effect he end result of a game."; Don't criticize me unless you are willing to fill my shoes." These type of comments are just rhetoric.

"Get over it and play on" is generally a response to someone's question, "How should I approach the ref when...." It's a practical response. "Any deficiency...." is also a practical response when the players or coaches or fans here complain about how their ref cost the game. It's a specific response and I've never seen it used to deflect criticism on whether an actual call was correct or not. "Don't criticize me...." I haven't actually seen this one. Got an example?

Originally Posted by jmaellis

IMO this type of attitude is a discredit to all officials and reinforces already negative stereotypes that officials are unapproachable and/or unwilling to acknowledge their own shortcomings.

How's the air up on that high horse of yours?

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree. Could you provide some examples of when someone is treated poorly for merely not understanding the rules?

Nevada's response in this thread, beginning with post #8, second sentence is a good example. Todd Pen in post #7 said, " .... I do not understand your post ...". Which in turn led to a personal, demeaning and confrontational response from Nevada. (I apologize to Nevada for calling him out but the post(s) within this thread serves as a good example of what I was referring to.)

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"Don't criticize me...." I haven't actually seen this one. Got an example?

Many. Only the second paragraph of my post was I referring specifically to my experiences/observations of this forum. The remainder of my post is my overall observations of officials since I became involved in officiating. So, some comments are things that I have heard, some are what I have read. I don't see a need to mine through old posts to "prove" that these types of things have been said or written. I remember them as quoted or with using similar words with the same meaning/context.

Originally Posted by Sanqwells

How's the air up on that high horse of yours?

Originally Posted by JMAELLIS

So anyway, this is all, of course, just my .02 that I thought I would share.

I was sharing general thoughts and my personal observations of some officials; you respond with an insult. If you want an example of the type of conduct that I referred to in my post ... look no further than a mirror.

[blindzebra1]

[quote=jmaellis]This is where the problem really started:



Todd Pen initiated the conflict and chose to spar with a prolific wordsmith. Todd Pen egged on Nevada, and Nevada took the bait .. oh well, Todd Pen got what he deserved; but so did Nevada, his conduct boiled over an already simmering pot.



NO TOLERANCE?,SWIFT CONDEMNATION?,CIRCLING OF THE WAGONS?!! ACKNOWLEGE THEIR OWN DEFICIENCIES?!!! MANY EXCUSES?!!!

WHY I OUGHTA!!!.......

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

This is where the problem really started:

Quote:

True, that is the post which started it, but you have highlighted the wrong sentence. What set me off was the attitude conveyed by his first words. I've put them in blue. As I have previously responded, all that this guy cares about is declaring that he was right and the ref was wrong. He still doesn't understand the rule with any depth, and doesn't seem to care about learning that.

The purpose of this forum is to increase our rules knowledge and thus better ourselves. It is not about proving that someone was right and someone else was wrong. There is no self-improvement there. That is merely pointing out the mistakes of others. (Of course, I do that myself some. However, it is mostly done in good fun, except in the case of Old School.)

To set the record straight, it wasn't wonderful of me to smack the OP, but here is why I did so.
My VERY FIRST POST in this thread was post #6, which consisted of nothing more than simply posting last season's NFHS Interp on this issue. In response to that "Mr. Perfect" displayed his I'm-still-right-and-the-ref-is-still-wrong attitude. He didn't even bother to take into account the extra information provided or that the official may have had a good reason for granting the time-out a bit late such as was pointed out by CLH, the initial responder, when he commented that perhaps the request was properly made, but the official couldn't get play stopped quickly enough or maybe was late recognizing the request and wasn't going to penalize the team for his tardiness. (On the other hand, perhaps this guy had Old School as his referee and he really did just make up his own rule! )

Anyway, I reacted to the attitude coming from "Mr. Perfect", who I still believe doesn't have any serious rules knowledge, by demonstrating to him that he also makes his share of mistakes and shouldn't be focusing on those of others. Thus the irony of his misspelling the word "gall" was particularly sweet.

The belief by the players, coaches, and spectators that it is unacceptable for the officials to be anything less than perfect has become particularly irksome to me. The human element is an integral part of sports. Mistakes will be made by all involved INCLUDING THE OFFICIALS. This needs to be accepted as part of the excitement of sporting contests. Otherwise, we could just plug the stats into a computer and award the trophies based on the print-outs.