After Made Basket - Time outs and fouls

Larks · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 04:22pm

This question was being kicked around in our association....curious for feedback here. NFHS.

Team A just scored a basket.

A: team B retrieves the ball and starts to inbound it. The Ref has started his/her 5-second count. Team A requests a time-out at this time.

B: The Ball is loose. The Ref has started his/her 5-second count because Team B has had plenty of time to secure the ball and start the throw in. Team A requests a time-out at this time.

C: The ball is loose. The Ref has NOT started his/her 5-second count. Team A requests a time-out at this time.

I think we'll all agree

A: no TO granted to A
B: no TO granted to A because ball was considered at B's disposal
C: Time Out Granted to A

Can anyone cite the NFHS rule book covering C:?

How can a team be granted a time out during a live ball without any type of control. I think we will agree that the ball has to become dead for some period in there in order for the correctable error system to work. But how is this really any different than any other situation where the ball is live but there is no team control and therefore no time out allowed? (Interrupted Dribble, Shot Attempt, Jump Ball, etc etc)

I personally had a play last week where the ball was checked by the net....became loose on the floor for 2...maybe 3 seconds. Team B had not secured the ball but wasnt really delaying doing so. A then asked for a time out. I gave it to them. I believe this to be proper but I honestly have not found where in the rules this is covered clearly.

Food for thought....

If the argument is that the ball is dead until it's at the disposal of B, what if A commits a foul before hand. Technical? Cant be personal if the ball is dead right?

So....here are questions for discussion:

When does the ball become dead?

Is there enough dead ball time here to make any personal foul technical (by the rule not considering our game management practices which make a tech here unlikely)? I'm talking basketball fouls here not A5 telling you "your mother wears army boots".

When does the ball become back alive?

When does the ball become at the disposal of B?

Why can A call time out without team control during this live ball sitch?

Is this one of those situations where the answer is: BECAUSE NFHS SEZ SO!!!

Are you dizzy from thinking about this yet?

Ok Old Dawgs....have at it.

Larks - VIT

DownTownTonyBrown · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 04:54pm

Rule 5-8-3 Timeouts can only be granted a) whent he ball is in control or at the disposal of the requesting team, or b) the ball is dead.

The ball is dead as soon as it goes through the basket and until the inbounding team secures it. It is practical to 'see' the request for a time-out before you 'see' the inbounding team get the ball.

In fact, I don't like your #B, although the rules support your conclusion (as does CB 5.8.3 Sit B). Yes Team A, the inbounding team, can call a timeout when the ball is at their disposal - could be laying on the floor. But, independent of the official's count, I personally would also grant a timeout to Team B if Team A hadn't yet secured the ball - I surely would not continue the count to the point of a violation on Team A if Team B is requesting a timeout and then grant the ball and a timeout to Team B. Personally it feels like too much of a penalty - let Team B save Team A's loss of the ball. JMHO. Anyone want to sway me to the rule book side of things?

My position is not supported by the rule book but I see it as preventive officiating - and not giving an advantage to anyone.

mick · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 04:57pm

Larks,
I think the NCAA guideline is: "Once the official has started the 5 second count...."
mick

pizanno · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 05:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Larks

Can anyone cite the NFHS rule book covering C:?

NFHS 7-6-1 ...throw in starts when the ball is at the disposal...

Since count was NOT started, then deemed to NOT be at disposal = dead ball.

Quote:

How can a team be granted a time out during a live ball without any type of control. ...But how is this really any different than any other situation where the ball is live but there is no team control and therefore no time out allowed? (Interrupted Dribble, Shot Attempt, Jump Ball, etc etc)

Good question, but hasn't occured in your scenarios.

Quote:

When does the ball become dead?

When it comes completely through the net.

Quote:

When does the ball become back alive?

When the official deems the ball at disposal

Quote:

When does the ball become at the disposal of B?

Judgement call. When the ball "waiting" to be inbounded (in the immediate vicinity of the throw-in area, not rolling away, bouncing is okay) I start my count.

Quote:

Why can A call time out without team control during this live ball sitch?

if you're referring to C, it's not a live ball.
[/QUOTE]

..let me have it!

rockyroad · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Larks
This question was being kicked around in our association....curious for feedback here. NFHS.

How can a team be granted a time out during a live ball without any type of control. I think we will agree that the ball has to become dead for some period in there in order for the correctable error system to work. But how is this really any different than any other situation where the ball is live but there is no team control and therefore no time out allowed? (Interrupted Dribble, Shot Attempt, Jump Ball, etc etc)

They can't...but this isn't a live ball - as soon as it went thru the net, it became dead...

So....here are questions for discussion:

When does the ball become dead?

Already answered...

Is there enough dead ball time here to make any personal foul technical (by the rule not considering our game management practices which make a tech here unlikely)? I'm talking basketball fouls here not A5 telling you "your mother wears army boots".

Sure...but again, use some common sense...

When does the ball become back alive?

When it's "at the disposal" - a good rule of thumb is that if they don't pick it up right away, it's live when I start my count...combine that idea with the common sense answer above, and you can see how to get out of calling a T for a foul during this scenario...

Why can A call time out without team control during this live ball sitch?
Because it's not a live ball sitch...

Is this one of those situations where the answer is: BECAUSE NFHS SEZ SO!!!

Nope...

Are you dizzy from thinking about this yet?

Nope...

Ok Old Dawgs....have at it.

Am I an old dawg?? And btw: congrats on passing your tests!!

Jurassic Referee · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 06:36pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rockyroad
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by Larks

Is there enough dead ball time here to make any personal foul technical (by the rule not considering our game management practices which make a tech here unlikely)? I'm talking basketball fouls here not A5 telling you "your mother wears army boots".

Sure...but again, use some common sense...

Lemme just expand on this one a little.Take a look at the definition of a personal foul- R4-19-1NOTE-"Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant...". Then look at part of the definition of an intentional foul in R4-19-3--"an intentional foul is a personal or technical foul designed to stop or keep the clock from starting,to neutralize an opponent's obvious position,contact away from the ball or when not playing the ball.It may or may not be premeditated and is not based on the severity of the act".

That should tell you how to handle this type of call.Ignore it,unless you are SURE that the foul was committed to give a team an advantage.If you think that's happening,then call it an intentional personal foul.

Sound reasonable?I think that Rocky had good answers for the rest of your questions,too. JMODO!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 4th, 2003 at 05:41 PM]

Larks · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 10:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Larks,
I think the NCAA guideline is: "Once the official has started the 5 second count...."
mick

Howd you hear about 99%?

Larks · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Feb 04, 2003, 10:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad

Am I an old dawg?? And btw: congrats on passing your tests!!

Thanks! I studied quite a bit and the hard work paid off on test night.

Larks · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 05, 2003, 08:14am

Thanks guys. I enjoy seeing something play out, reading up on it and then coming here to get more feedback. I think it may make sense for NF to tweak the wording for this scenario(IMHO) a bit maybe in the case book. Something like: "Following a made basket or 2nd free throw by A, team A can be granted a time out until team B secures the ball or until the official begins his 5 count which ever happens first."

On the personal v technical foul side of things, my questions were all answered here, very well I might add.

Good Stuff Guys

Larks - VIT

mick · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Feb 05, 2003, 08:22am

Quote:

Originally posted by Larks

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Larks,
I think the NCAA guideline is: "Once the official has started the 5 second count...."
mick

Howd you hear about 99%?

Rodan told everyone.