Throw in kick ball

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

How is it required that the clock must start and stop? What if a foul occurs simultaneously with the first touch? It doesn't have to start then, does it?

According to rule 5-9-1, it sureasheck does have to start. That's what we've been trying to tell you.

I agree with Tony about the wording, but until the FED changes it, we have to follow what they've written.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

According to rule 5-9-1, it sureasheck does have to start. That's what we've been trying to tell you.

I agree with Tony about the wording, but until the FED changes it, we have to follow what they've written.

I agree with both of you about the wording, but there is nothing in the wording now that says the clock must start if the foul/violation occurs before or at the same time as the first touch.

[btaylor64]

I thought that the clock can't start until "the ball is legally touched inbounds". A kicked ball is not a legal touch therefore no time should come off the clock right?

It would be the same as a player stealing the tap at the start of the game. if time comes off the clock you put 8:00 back on the clock before the inbounding of the ball?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I thought that the clock can't start until "the ball is legally touched inbounds". A kicked ball is not a legal touch therefore no time should come off the clock right?

Rule in this case does not say legally touched, only "ball touches or is touched by a player on the court."

But why does starting the clock as per this rule take precedence over 5-8-1 which says stop clock on violation? No one has answered this question as far as I know.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But why does starting the clock as per this rule take precedence over 5-8-1 which says stop clock on violation? No one has answered this question as far as I know.

That question has already been answered several times. How many times does it have to be answered before you'll understand that?

1) The official is supposed to start the clock on a throw-in as per rule 5-9-4 as soon as the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court. There is no provision anywhere in the rules to NOT start the clock.
2) If a player on the court now commits a violation, the official is supposed to stop the clock for that violation as per rule 5-8-1(c).

You simply follow the RULES in order. Whether the touch and the kicking violation are simultaneous or not has got no bearing on anything. You start the clock. You stop the clock.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) The official is supposed to start the clock on a throw-in as per rule 5-9-4 as soon as the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court. There is no provision anywhere in the rules to NOT start the clock.
2) If a player on the court now commits a violation, the official is supposed to stop the clock for that violation as per rule 5-8-1(c).

You simply follow the RULES in order. Whether the touch and the kicking violation are simultaneous or not has got no bearing on anything. You start the clock. You stop the clock.

6-7-9 states: The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when: a violation occurs.

So you're telling me you start the clock even though the ball became dead on the touch/kick in this case.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I thought that the clock can't start until "the ball is legally touched inbounds".

btaylor, have you gone to the rulebook and read 5-9-4, as Jurassic has suggested?

It would be the same as a player stealing the tap at the start of the game. if time comes off the clock you put 8:00 back on the clock before the inbounding of the ball?

Got a rule reference for that one?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

btaylor, have you gone to the rulebook and read 5-9-4, as Jurassic has suggested?


Got a rule reference for that one?

No I haven't. I don't have my high school rulebook. I guess I just took it for granted and thought that this part of the rulebook read like every other rulebook and used the word "legally touched" but I guess it doesn't. Wow that's crazy. I don't guess I will be resetting the clock on the jump ball after all. Thanks

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

No I haven't. I don't have my high school rulebook. I guess I just took it for granted and thought that this part of the rulebook read like every other rulebook and used the word "legally touched" but I guess it doesn't. Wow that's crazy. I don't guess I will be resetting the clock on the jump ball after all. Thanks

You can if you determine the original toss was bad. Other than that....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Got a rule reference for that one?

I do. NFHS rule 5-9-2 says that if play is started by a jump, the clock starts when the tossed ball is legally touched. If the player steals the tap, that's an illegal touch and the clock should never have started. Soooooo.....under rule 5-10-1, the official has definite information and the clock is reset to 8:00. Iow, Ben's statement as is was correct imo.

[Vinski]

How about this…
I understand JR’s response that by rule the clock must start when touched during the throw-in, legally or not. However, the clock also must stop on a violation such as a kick. Now, as per the OP, these two acts happen at exactly the same time. Soooo, when considering the space-time-continuum, that would equal a total amount of elapsed time of 0.0 seconds. If this is the case, then we would have exact knowledge of the time elapsed (which would be 0 time) and would conclude that the clock should indicate that no time should have come off. When looked at it from this approach we would still satisfy the rule that the clock must start when the ball is touch on the throw-in and that it would be stopped on the violation. These acts just happen to occur at the exact same time.
Alright, let me have it….

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Vinski

How about this…
I understand JR’s response that by rule the clock must start when touched during the throw-in, legally or not. However, the clock also must stop on a violation such as a kick. Now, as per the OP, these two acts happen at exactly the same time. Soooo, when considering the space-time-continuum, that would equal a total amount of elapsed time of 0.0 seconds. If this is the case, then we would have exact knowledge of the time elapsed (which would be 0 time) and would conclude that the clock should indicate that no time should have come off. When looked at it from this approach we would still satisfy the rule that the clock must start when the ball is touch on the throw-in and that it would be stopped on the violation. These acts just happen to occur at the exact same time.
Alright, let me have it….

Since the clock must start and stop, any time that runs off the clock is NOT a timing error and therefore is not subject to the definite knowledge rule.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Vinski

How about this…
I understand JR’s response that by rule the clock must start when touched during the throw-in, legally or not. However, the clock also must stop on a violation such as a kick. Now, as per the OP, these two acts happen at exactly the same time. Soooo, when considering the space-time-continuum, that would equal a total amount of elapsed time of 0.0 seconds. If this is the case, then we would have exact knowledge of the time elapsed (which would be 0 time) and would conclude that the clock should indicate that no time should have come off. When looked at it from this approach we would still satisfy the rule that the clock must start when the ball is touch on the throw-in and that it would be stopped on the violation. These acts just happen to occur at the exact same time.
Alright, let me have it….

I like your logic in the larger scheme of things, but until the Rules Committee actually writes some consideration of the space-time continuum into the 21 philosophies, I think we're going to have to be a little less intelligent about the whole thing. For me, this sitch is going to happen, and matter, only about once a decade. I mean, in a 15 point game with three minutes left, who cares whether 1 second or 2 seconds or no seconds run off the clock? I'm not going to notice, and no one's going to argue (6th grade girls coaches dont generally care about things like that!). I've developed a habit of always starting a visual count when the clock should start, so I can use that as "definite knowledge" and put time back on if necessary. If it's a one point game, with 2 seconds left, I"m gonna just blow it if I blow it, and do it right if I do it right. When it happens I won't remember this whole discussion anyway.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I do. NFHS rule 5-9-2 says that if play is started by a jump, the clock starts when the tossed ball is legally touched. If the player steals the tap, that's an illegal touch and the clock should never have started.

I just hate it when I'm wrong about little details like that.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I do. NFHS rule 5-9-2 says that if play is started by a jump, the clock starts when the tossed ball is legally touched. If the player steals the tap, that's an illegal touch and the clock should never have started. Soooooo.....under rule 5-10-1, the official has definite information and the clock is reset to 8:00. Iow, Ben's statement as is was correct imo.

My question now is, Why has the fed not changed the wording on inbounding the ball so this can be more consistent?