Philosophical discussion - should NF and NCAA rules be the same?

[M&M Guy]

I know, I know, I'm goin' to hel!

Do want me to say "hi" to JR while I'm down there?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I know, I know, I'm goin' to hel!

Do want me to say "hi" to JR while I'm down there?

You'll have to say it on your way passed him, 'cause you're beating him there.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think you are approaching this in the wrong way. The issue is not whether college rules would not work or not work. The issue is there are rules that are not appropriate for college aged kids as opposed to HS aged kids. Do we really think the game would be served at the HS level if we moved back the 3 point line?

Peace

I don't think I'm approaching it the wrong way because I'm just tossing it out there for discussion. That's why my original post was titled, "Philisophical Discussion."

Also, as I pointed out in an earlier post, I'm not talking about things like shot clocks and court markings. There will always be structual limitations at some gyms. Our HS district playoffs are often played at our only high school that has a 94-foot college court which is no big deal. I'm not talking about doctor's notes for concussions either. I'm talking about the minor differences in game rules (or mechanics even) that really could be changed (by either HS or NCAA) which would not affect the game and would prevent officials from screwing up a rule (or having two remember two or three sets of mechanics).

Just a minor example. Last year, three of our association officials were working a district playoff game. A technical foul is called on a player. Two shots are assessed and then the official (who also does D-2 women's college) went to POI. Yeah, I know there is no excuse for it (and his partners should have talked him out of it even though he is an official that is not much for discussing any of his decisions) but to me it would be no big deal to either make HS T's be 2 shots plus POI or else have college T's be two shots plus ball to opponent and administer at half-court.

And yes, I know it's a lot about politics and neither side would ever budge as long as there are several different people involved in those decisions.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by zebraman

That's why my original post was titled, "Philisophical Discussion."

Is a "Phil i sophical Discussion" a conversation held in Philadelphia?

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Is a "Phil i sophical Discussion" a conversation held in Philadelphia?

When is this board going to include spell check?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Just a minor example. Last year, three of our association officials were working a district playoff game. A technical foul is called on a player. Two shots are assessed and then the official (who also does D-2 women's college) went to POI. Yeah, I know there is no excuse for it (and his partners should have talked him out of it even though he is an official that is not much for discussing any of his decisions)

Was that Lonnie??? For crying out loud, I'll kick his butt for you next time I see him!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I don't think I'm approaching it the wrong way because I'm just tossing it out there for discussion. That's why my original post was titled, "Philosophical Discussion."

Also, as I pointed out in an earlier post, I'm not talking about things like shot clocks and court markings. There will always be structual limitations at some gyms. Our HS district playoffs are often played at our only high school that has a 94-foot college court which is no big deal. I'm not talking about doctor's notes for concussions either. I'm talking about the minor differences in game rules (or mechanics even) that really could be changed (by either HS or NCAA) which would not affect the game and would prevent officials from screwing up a rule (or having two remember two or three sets of mechanics).

Here is the thing. All those things you claim is not an issue can be a very big issue. The NCAA does not require many D2 and D3 schools to do things because they do not have the resources as the D1 level.

Since you mentioned it, it would be very difficult to institute replay at the HS level. Most schools do not have the resources. NCAA games have more at stake than a local championship. NCAA games literally have millions of dollars on the line so their rules are going to be more complex for that level. Do you want to leave a big play in the hands of some freshman that does not even know how to use a camera at the HS level?

Originally Posted by zebraman

And yes, I know it's a lot about politics and neither side would ever budge as long as there are several different people involved in those decisions.

I do not know what politics has to do with this. NCAA is a completely different governing body than the NF or the NBA or FIBA. The only people that would be clamoring for this would be officials for the most part. We are the only ones that can work a HS game and a D1 game in the same week. Coaches and players do not have that kind of dog in this fight. And the NCAA is made of entirely coaches that produce their rules.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

Many of you know that I officiate football as well.

In the Canadian football scene, there are two rulebooks: one for amateur play and one for professional play (CFL). 99.9% of the football officials in Canada only need to focus on one rulebook. Kids at 6 years old play with the same rules as those at the CIS level (equivalent to NCAA).

In the Ontario basketball scene, high schools and club basketball play with Federation rules. CIS men's play modified NCAA men's rules and CIS women's play with modified FIBA rules. Having done two pre-seasons of CIS basketball, I can tell you that there is considerable time taken to ensure that officials transfer from one level/ruleset to the next. I think now CIS women's might play modified NCAA women's rules.

With every rule, there is the spirit and philosphy behind the rule. Beginning officials working the 10-year olds hear the philosophy and have the on-field experience with the philosophy without having to change to a new ruleset.

This time taken for re-training doesn't exist in Canadian football. I agree that it doesn't take much to learn new rulesets and those moving up to a new level of officiating have already shown aptitude with the philosophies of that next level. However, my observations tell me that the model that Cdn football has (1 ruleset) produces officials that are ready to move up to the next level quicker.

IOW, I think our football officials are better than our basketball officials. Does having one ruleset help? Yes. How much? Dunno.

[Mendy Trent]

I agree that many, many rules differences between NCAA and HS are unnecessary. I see a lot of rule screw-ups that are due to an official not being able to remember the correct rule for the level that he/she is officiating. There really needs to be an effort to merge the rule sets as much as possible.

[Old School]

Good discussion. One thing that was left out in this discussion that I think is the main point of why we should do this. Progression of the athlete, progression of the official. The quicker we get the kids to playing college rules, the better the player for college, and for the next step, the pro's. The women are doing this. In AAU, girls are playing with the shot clock and NCAA rules starting at age 11. They also play the game with 3 officials. Likewise, a WNBA official can also be a NCAA-W official (or vice-versa) and there's no problems going back to the coaches.

What I'm talking about here is preparing the athlete and the official for the next level. That next level being college and then the pro's. I don't have a problem with the way it is right now. It just seems like it's so screwed up and that nobody was paying attention when this all came about. We didn't have a global view when the organizations where formed.

A 3rd aspect to this discussion is the fact that HS games are not wagered. What I mean is there is betting on NCAA /NBA games, which dictates a specific rule set, like the shot clock. When we start legal betting of HS games, then we might start to see more NCAA rules in HS. Right now, the rules and the way the philosophies behind how the game should be officiated is so different, it's scary. I had a varsity HS game where we called a double foul, POI right, veteran partners insisted it was AP and i wasn't changing their mind. I had an AAU game later this spring and called a double foul and went AP. I was for sure I was doing the right thing. Dammmmmnnnnnn......!!!!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

A 3rd aspect to this discussion is the fact that HS games are not wagered. What I mean is there is betting on NCAA /NBA games, which dictates a specific rule set, like the shot clock. When we start legal betting of HS games, then we might start to see more NCAA rules in HS.

WTF????!!!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

WTF????!!!!

Are you really surprised?

Peace

[zebraman]

I'm not sure that I really followed Old School's post. But if I did, I think he kind of agreed with me.

If he agreed with me, then I would like to completely take this whole thread back and retract everything I said. Keep the rules different. In fact, make even more differences!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Are you really surprised?

Peace

Nah, just caught off guard. His post was, up until that point, merely pointless. Kind of like watching a jogger running across a bridge when he suddenly changes direction and just runs off the side with his legs continuing to run all the way down to the river below.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I'm not sure that I really followed Old School's post. But if I did, I think he kind of agreed with me.

If he agreed with me, then I would like to completely take this whole thread back and retract everything I said. Keep the rules different. In fact, make even more differences!

ROFLMAO! dot dot dot