Philosophical discussion - should NF and NCAA rules be the same?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Also understand that the T rule is very different at the college level. Men's and Women's sides do have differences, but I think the rule just brings confusion to those that have to apply it.

I agree. Even with 5 years of NCAA scorekeeping experience, I still get confused from time to time at the differences between direct and indirect technicals - particularly which ones count towards player & team totals - with NCAA rules.

The NF rule is clear and gives a clear punishment as opposed to the NCA rule which you can benefit from getting a T.

I'm not sure I understand this claim. What sort of T gives the team/player against which it's called an advantage?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

What sort of T gives the team/player against which it's called an advantage?

Maybe an excessive time-out in men's rules? You get the T, but sometimes the POI is that you get the ball back.

[zebraman]

Could someone list maybe 3 rules or mechanics from college that absolutely would not work in HS? (and vice versa).

Someone mentioned that some players could not navigate a shot clock, but that is not true because we use a 30-second shot clock for high school girls here in the state of Washington and it is no big deal.

All I'm hearing so far is that the problem is confusion between the different sets of rules. I have not yet heard good arguments for having those differences.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Maybe an excessive time-out in men's rules? You get the T, but sometimes the POI is that you get the ball back.

Didn't help Michigan.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Didn't help Michigan.

That's because the POI wasn't the rule then.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I'm not sure I understand this claim. What sort of T gives the team/player against which it's called an advantage?

In NF if I call a T on your team, you lose the ball and I give FTs to your opponent. In NCAA I can call a T for you and you can get the ball back at the same spot you had it before the T.

Now the reason this is not a problem at the NCAA level in my opinion, is the fact that college coaches have so much control over their programs. Very rarely have a single college player say "boo" to any official during a game because that T might lose a game, might lose a title and lose a job if it happens at the right time. A HS coach is not paid hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars and they are not accountable to as many people. So if a coach has an out of control kid, they cannot just get rid of that kid like a college coach can with one of their players. I think this is a rule that shows why you do POI for all Ts would be OK at the NCAA level, but might be a disaster at the HS level.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Could someone list maybe 3 rules or mechanics from college that absolutely would not work in HS? (and vice versa).

Someone mentioned that some players could not navigate a shot clock, but that is not true because we use a 30-second shot clock for high school girls here in the state of Washington and it is no big deal.

All I'm hearing so far is that the problem is confusion between the different sets of rules. I have not yet heard good arguments for having those differences.

I think you are approaching this in the wrong way. The issue is not whether college rules would not work or not work. The issue is there are rules that are not appropriate for college aged kids as opposed to HS aged kids. I would say the very same for the NBA and their rules. Recently we could not even agree on language and application of the terminology "Flagrant 1" and "Flagrant 2" fouls and how that would apply to the HS level. Considering that when we have basic college rules some times filter down to the HS ranks, there always seems to be a confusion period to how to apply a simple college rule.

Do we really think the game would be served at the HS level if we moved back the 3 point line? What about the Women's rule that only has closely guarded on a held ball and 3 feet away rather than the NF 6 feet? I can tell you that at least on the Boy's side; we would just have a couple of very good ball handlers just dribbling all over the place. You would not promote passing or actual ball movement, but you would have a dribbler just holding on to the ball. Would you want to just throw out the requirement for giving a doctor's note if a player is unconscious? I realize this is not a big rule, but I do not think I want HS coaches deciding if a kid with a head injury is going to play because they personally think it is a great idea. Or what about the lack of airborne shooter rule that is used on the Men's side? You really want officials making that call? Those might not be the best rules you want to discuss and I am sure you and others might disagree, but there are rules at the college level I would not want to see at the HS level.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

I'm surprised no one hasSnaqs mentioned the purely political aspect - who's going to give up their "authority" on rule-making? Since we are dealing with different organizations, (NFHS, NJCAA, NCAA, NAIA, NBA), with different people and differing philosophies, there are bound to differences. If we tried to combine any of these rule-making bodies, who's going to be the one to have less say or more say on the committee? I'm sure there are a number of people within the NF that don't want any part of the college game. There are probably just as many in the NCAA that don't want to consider kids that play HS or grade school in the rules decisions. So, there will be differences.

At least they haven't changed the rule where the most number of points wins.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the purely political aspect - who's going to give up their "authority" on rule-making? Since we are dealing with different organizations, (NFHS, NJCAA, NCAA, NAIA, NBA), with different people and differing philosophies, there are bound to differences. If we tried to combine any of these rule-making bodies, who's going to be the one to have less say or more say on the committee? I'm sure there are a number of people within the NF that don't want any part of the college game. There are probably just as many in the NCAA that don't want to consider kids that play HS or grade school in the rules decisions. So, there will be differences.

At least they haven't changed the rule where the most number of points wins.

Let us take it a step further. I know many are probably only thinking of what might happen as it relates to basketball. Basketball from what I can tell has more similarities between rules than most sports I am aware of. Football has over 200 differences from NCAA to NF. You really think the NCAA is going to want to throw out all their rules that coaches have spent years trying to "screw" just to make everything similar for HS kids? I do not think so.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the purely political aspect - who's going to give up their "authority" on rule-making? Since we are dealing with different organizations, (NFHS, NJCAA, NCAA, NAIA, NBA), with different people and differing philosophies, there are bound to differences. If we tried to combine any of these rule-making bodies, who's going to be the one to have less say or more say on the committee? I'm sure there are a number of people within the NF that don't want any part of the college game. There are probably just as many in the NCAA that don't want to consider kids that play HS or grade school in the rules decisions. So, there will be differences.

At least they haven't changed the rule where the most number of points wins.

Ahem: post 28

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let us take it a step further. I know many are probably only thinking of what might happen as it relates to basketball. Basketball from what I can tell has more similarities between rules than most sports I am aware of. Football has over 200 differences from NCAA to NF. You really think the NCAA is going to want to throw out all their rules that coaches have spent years trying to "screw" just to make everything similar for HS kids? I do not think so.

Peace

Exactly. Who's going to be the one to agree to 200 changes for the upcoming season? Or, are both going to agree to 100 changes each?

I don't see it happening in my lifetime. Or my kids' lifetime.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Ahem: post 28

Oops, sorry. I must've skipped over it because I didn't see any windmills...

Edited for proper credit.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Oops, sorry. I must've skipped over it because I didn't see any windmills...

Edited for proper credit.

I feel so taken for granted.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I feel so taken for granted.

I'm really sorry.

Does a cookie help?

[Adam]

That's just wrong.