Stick 'em or not?

[mbyron]

The point, I take it, is that the existence of the penalty is in itself a deterrent to the penalized act and is thus "preventative."

You're right, though, that calling a foul does not prevent that instance of the foul.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The point, I take it, is that the existence of the penalty is in itself a deterrent to the penalized act and is thus "preventative."

It's a good thing we have a rule against traveling, then, to prevent that from happening!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

It's a good thing we have a rule against traveling, then, to prevent that from happening!

Freaking volleyball officials.....

OK, you tell me, Scappy......whatinthehell is preventive officiating then? Does it even exist if somebody has the option of ignoring an official's attempt at preventive officiating? According to your logic, preventive officiating can't exist.

[Adam]

JR, are you saying officiating isn't about being "preventative?"

Sorry, I'm off playing Air Force for a week, so my brain is a little slow today.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

JR, are you saying officiating isn't about being "preventative?"

Nope, Skippy is. Ask him.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OK, you tell me, Scappy......whatinthehell is preventive officiating then? Does it even exist if somebody has the option of ignoring an official's attempt at preventive officiating?

Preventive officiating is when you prevent a player from breaking the rules.

"Clear the lane!"
"Hands off!"
"Straight up, guys!"

There are penalties that you can enforce, if a player handchecks or dislodges a player in the low post or stays in the lane for 3 seconds. But with 2 or 3 words, the player doesn't actually commit the infraction. That's preventive. You've actually prevented the infraction. Hence the name "preventive officiating". See the connection now?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Preventive officiating is when you prevent a player from breaking the rules.

"Clear the lane!"
"Hands off!"
"Straight up, guys!"

There are penalties that you can enforce, if a player handchecks or dislodges a player in the low post or stays in the lane for 3 seconds. But with 2 or 3 words, the player doesn't actually commit the infraction. That's preventive. You've actually prevented the infraction. Hence the name "preventive officiating". See the connection now?

But your argument makes no sense. You cannot truly prevent a player from committing any infraction. How is telling someone "Hands off!" preventing the player from doing anything? If he continues to displace the opposing player, you haven't prevented anything, have you?

You can only try to help prevent players from committing infractions - you cannot prevent them from doing anything. Otherwise there would be no infractions. Your argument holds no water - it's no different than saying the penalty is preventative. You're essentially agreeing with JR here.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Smitty

You can only try to help prevent players from committing infractions - you cannot prevent them from doing anything.

So what would you like to call it? "Trying to helping preventing officiating"? Jeez.

If my voice makes a light bulb go on over a kid's head, that's preventive. If my voice doesn't help and the kid commits the infraction, then it's not preventive and I have to go to the penalty.

The penalty is NEVER preventive, because it's applied AFTER the infraction. If you PREVENT the infraction, you don't need the penalty.

Writing a speeding ticket is not preventive law enforcement. A state trooper driving in the middle lane at 65 mph is preventive law enforcement. Just by being there, s/he is preventing most people from speeding.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

2) The penalty is NEVER preventive, because it's applied AFTER the infraction.

2) If you PREVENT the infraction, you don't need the penalty.

1) Does that mean that none of the penalties in the book are preventive in nature? Coulda fooled me. I thought that they were all instituted to try to prevent a specific act.

2) And if you don't prevent the infraction, how can it be "preventive"?

Are you really saying that, in the play being discussed, instituting an expanded penalty to a normal live ball foul by adding an EXTRA penalty(second shot maybe + possession) for fouling a thrower OOB isn't preventive in nature?

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If my voice makes a light bulb go on over a kid's head, that's preventive. If my voice doesn't help and the kid commits the infraction, then it's not preventive and I have to go to the penalty.

The penalty is NEVER preventive

Now you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. How can you possibly say with any certainty that knowing the penalty for an act doesn't prevent a kid from performing an illegal act? You're saying that it's not possible that a kid can stop from doing something illegal because he knows he might get penalized for it? How is that not preventative?

You are being silly.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

The penalty is NEVER preventive, because it's applied AFTER the infraction. If you PREVENT the infraction, you don't need the penalty.

Writing a speeding ticket is not preventive law enforcement. A state trooper driving in the middle lane at 65 mph is preventive law enforcement. Just by being there, s/he is preventing most people from speeding.

Wellll....neither writing the speeding ticket nor the trooper being in sight is preventative. What is preventative is the threat of the penalty (a $$$ fine and points and increased insurance rates) that comes after the trooper writes the ticket. The penalty is what makes real the preventative threat.

THAT's what is preventative. If it wasn't for the threat of a penalty I would roll down my window and throw my beer can at the trooper as I sped by him.

As for the little bulb you turn on for the player...there's another word for that: coaching.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

So what would you like to call it? "Trying to helping preventing officiating"? Jeez.

If my voice makes a light bulb go on over a kid's head, that's preventive. If my voice doesn't help and the kid commits the infraction, then it's not preventive and I have to go to the penalty.

The penalty is NEVER preventive, because it's applied AFTER the infraction. If you PREVENT the infraction, you don't need the penalty.

Writing a speeding ticket is not preventive law enforcement. A state trooper driving in the middle lane at 65 mph is preventive law enforcement. Just by being there, s/he is preventing most people from speeding.

Originally Posted by mbyron

This is a simple "type/token" confusion.

(1) Penalties are in the rule book to prevent certain types of act.

(2) Imposing a penalty for a foul or violation obviously cannot prevent the token (or instance) that one whistled.

The truth of (2) does not undercut the truth of (1).

The idea of such preventive officiating as "get out of the middle!" depends on the idea in (1).

What are you guys, a couple of philosophy professors? You're making it way too complicated. If you yell at the players, they either don't do the dirty, or they do. If they do, you penalize; if they don't, you let them play on. Who cares what the durn words are?

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Geeze, think I'll get kicked out of the clique?

Well, duh, of course not. You've got yourself a lifetime membership just by being so difficult all the time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Preventive officiating is when you prevent a player from breaking the rules.

"Clear the lane!"
"Hands off!"
"Straight up, guys!"

There are penalties that you can enforce, if a player handchecks or dislodges a player in the low post or stays in the lane for 3 seconds. But with 2 or 3 words, the player doesn't actually commit the infraction. That's preventive. You've actually prevented the infraction. Hence the name "preventive officiating". See the connection now?

Sigh.....

And if they don't (1)clear the lane,(2)keep their hands off, or (3) don't go straight up, then howinthehell can you call it preventive officiating? You haven't prevented anything. All you're doing is telling a player not to break a specific rule.

Which was exactly my point......

The rule on intentional fouls for a defender going OOB and fouling an opponent on a throw-in is preventive! It was put into the book to stop defenders from pulling that nonsense. Aamof, you can also say that every rule in the book is preventive in nature. Whether it actually prevents what it was intended to prevent is irrelevant.

And further.... if stopping the clock in the last minute is supposedly "preventive", then what is preventing a defender from STILL going OOB and fouling the thrower, even though the clock is stopped?

[Dan_ref]

Geeze, poor scimpy's getting an old fashioned beat down here.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Geeze, poor scimpy's getting an old fashioned beat down here.

He'd be better off sticking to volleyball.